23 replies to this topic

[CK_GoldenNuggets]

I had an idea to compile all the alpha damages from all the tanks in the game and compare them to respective premium alpha damage values. 
Thanks to Fishy_ for the idea.
With some help from Maverick, here is the list of damage values and % reduction in alpha for all tanks tier 6 - 10
There is also some other info about the number of tanks in game on the side.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

 

[__Frostbite]

When I get the time, Tiers 1-5 to come soon.

Edited by I_Maverick_I, 27 November 2018 - 06:49 PM.

[Posit1ve_]

Here's the TL/DR

 

Basically everything that doesn't use HESH as a prem round has a 14-16% reduction except the WZ-113 which for some reason only has a 7.5% reduction. 

[_Crusader6_]

So bogus about the WZ-113 - but I guess it needs a redeeming feature when an Aircraft Carrier turns inside of it...

 

 

[_Duncan_Idaho_]

Cool. . . this chart shows the 113 as an outlier

 

would be interesting to add a additional columns showing the relative pen for standard and prem ammo and the percent change. This would show relative pen improvement to dmg cost. 

[CK_GoldenNuggets]

_Duncan_Idaho_, on 27 November 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

Cool. . . this chart shows the 113 as an outlier

 

would be interesting to add a additional columns showing the relative pen for standard and prem ammo and the percent change. This would show relative pen improvement to dmg cost. 

 

I like this. It shall be done

[__Frostbite]

Interesting Notes section added

So far this is what we got:

- Almost all tanks have a -14% to 16% damage loss when using premium ammunition, with the exception of the Chieftain Mk. 6 at -10%, and the WZ-113 at -7.5%

- The Lttb (Tier 7 Russian Light) has the most damage loss with premium shells, with a -20% loss
- List of tanks that have guns with premium shells that gain damage and lose penetration compared to their standard shells: FV4202, FV215b 183, Centurion 7/1, ISU-130, T49, Tankenstein, T49 A, SU-100Y

- Current issue with update 5.5 there is one tank that has its premium shells increase its DPM, the M7 (Tier 4 American Medium). No idea if this was intended

- Tanks that do not have a premium shell offered on the top/popular gun: St. Emil (i think that's the only one)

Edited by I_Maverick_I, 27 November 2018 - 07:24 PM.

[reluctanttheist]

Wait - there's nothing new here in terms of prammo alpha values compared to regular ammo, right?

[AdderaII]

What I'd be interested in learning, would be the percentages of successful damage, inflicted on the enemy, using AP vs Premium.

 

Let's say you drive a Type 59, in a tier 8 battle where you fire and hit 10 shots (for simplicity's sake) of AP and end up with 2 bounces.

 

Out of a potential 2800 in damages, the two bounces cost you -560 so you end up with total damages of 2240 (I know that's never exact in real life, but I'm generalizing for simplicity)

 

Now lets look at just using Premium, same 10 hits, but with zero bounces, gives you 10 x 240 = 2400 in damages

 

If you only bounced one shot, the differences would favor using AP 2520 vs 2400 using Premium, with zero bounces, but once you bounce more than one shot, AP can no longer catch up to the damage inflicted by Premium ammo. AP with two bounces = 2240 vs 2400 with Premium and no bounces.

 

So basically, if you're bouncing 20% or more of your shots, it's more effective to just fire Premium all the time. Obviously, this doesn't apply to magicals, who always correctly switch between ammo types on the fly and never bounce any shots ever, but for dumb hacks like me, just firing Premium all the time,  allows me to do more damage, than to continue attempting to switch back and forth between ammo types.

 

 

.

 

 

Edited by AdderaII, 27 November 2018 - 07:51 PM.

[CK_GoldenNuggets]

AdderaII, on 27 November 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

What I'd be interested in learning, would be the percentages of successful damage, inflicted on the enemy, using AP vs Premium.

 

Let's say you drive a Type 59, in a tier 8 battle where you fire and hit 10 shots (for simplicity's sake) of AP and end up with 2 bounces.

 

Out of a potential 2800 in damages, the two bounces cost you -560 so you end up with total damages of 2240 (I know that's never exact in real life, but I'm generalizing for simplicity)

 

Now lets look at just using Premium, same 10 hits, but with zero bounces, gives you 10 x 240 = 2400 in damages

 

If you only bounced one shot, the differences would favor using AP 2520 vs 2400 using Premium, with zero bounces.

 

So basically, if you're bouncing 20% or more of your shots, it's more effective to just fire Premium all the time. Obviously, this doesn't apply to magicals, who always correctly switch between ammo types on the fly and never bounce any shots ever, but for dumb hacks like me, just firing Premium all the time,  allow me to do more damage, than to continue attempting to switch back and forth between ammo types.

 

 

 

 

Theres no way to test that because situations and tanks are different.
If you fire 10 shots of AP 246pen on a Maus at the cheeks of another maus turret you will bounce 9 / 10 and 311 APCR, you will pen 9 / 10
So the probability you will use Premium is much higher.
The chance for 225 AP vs 270 Heat on an Is3 to pen an IS6 upper plate depends on the relative distance to the is6 in question and angle he is sitting at.

Its not possible to do a specific set of tests and say, yes you should always use AP over APCR or HEAT. Its situation specific.

Edited by CK_GoldenNuggets, 27 November 2018 - 07:50 PM.

[AdderaII]

CK_GoldenNuggets, on 27 November 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

Its not possible to do a specific set of tests and say, yes you should always use AP over APCR or HEAT. Its situation specific.

 

I suppose, if I were dedicated enough, I could go through my last ten replays and judge every shot I bounced, where using Premium would most likely not have bounced and then compare the damage results for actual damage inflicted vs potential damage inflicted if I had used Premium, but I don't have to do that, 'cause I already know I bounce SO many shots, that I'm already well over the 20% that would make using only Premium ammo more beneficial than trying to manage both AP and Premium on the fly.

[CK_GoldenNuggets]

AdderaII, on 27 November 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

 

I suppose, if I were dedicated enough, I could go through my last ten replays and judge every shot I bounced, where using Premium would most likely not have bounced and then compare the damage results for actual damage inflicted vs potential damage inflicted if I had used Premium, but I don't have to do that, 'cause I already know I bounce SO many shots, that I'm already well over the 20% that would make using only Premium ammo more beneficial than trying to manage both AP and Premium on the fly.

 

That is just speculation though... unless you physically see and record the event happening, there is no reliable way to create a data chart saying: "In this scenario premium would have penned when standard did not" or vice versa. You cant creat concrete and reliable data on the subject as a whole. You can do it for every circumstance if you wanted, but that could potentially be infinite, so I dont recommend anyone do that.

if you just want advise on ammo overall, I recommend always halfing your ammo 50/50 prem to standard on every tank with few exceptions...
like Tier 10s, durp guns, autoloaders, and low ammo count tanks (40 shells or less if it fires fast, 30 or less if it fires slower.)
Most tanks can carry 50 / 50 and never run out of either ammo type.

Edited by CK_GoldenNuggets, 27 November 2018 - 08:08 PM.

[AdderaII]

CK_GoldenNuggets, on 27 November 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

 

That is just speculation though... unless you physically see and record the event happening, there is no reliable way to create a data chart saying: "In this scenario premium would have penned when standard did not" or vice versa. You cant creat concrete and reliable data on the subject as a whole. You can do it for every circumstance if you wanted, but that could potentially be infinite, so I dont recommend anyone do that.

if you just want advise on ammo overall, I recommend always halfing your ammo 50/50 prem to standard on every tank with few exceptions...
like Tier 10s, durp guns and low ammo count tanks (40 shells or less if it fires fast, 30 or less if it fires slower.)

 

I don't see why it couldn't be sampled.

Take 10 battles where a player used both AP and Premium and compare them to 10 battles by the same player, in the same tank, using only Premium and compare overall damage.

 

Do that with 10 to 100 random players and you should get some data reliable enough to graph.

 

Anyway, my point is, if the average difference in damage dealt, between using AP and Premium ammunition is 15%, then any non penetrating shots (attributable to not using Premium ammo) above 15% of the total shots fired in battle, would have paid for themselves in overall damage, if only Premium ammo had been used.

 

Just assume monetary cost of the ammo is not a factor.

Edited by AdderaII, 27 November 2018 - 08:21 PM.

[CK_GoldenNuggets]

Ya this could work, but 1000 battles is probably the bare minimum you want for it to be a legitimate and reliable chunk of info worth graphing.
It would probably take a while if you did it alone...
Im still looking for people to help with studies like this in my Discord.
If you are interested in starting a study like that and helping with others then swing by and lend us a hand. Just name yourself accordingly so I know its you.

 

https://discord.gg/PHwpJse

 

Edited by CK_GoldenNuggets, 27 November 2018 - 08:25 PM.

[AdderaII]

CK_GoldenNuggets, on 27 November 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

Ya this could work, but 1000 battles is probably the bare minimum you want for it to be a legitimate and reliable chunk of info worth graphing.
It would probably take a while if you did it alone...
Im still looking for people to help with studies like this in my Discord.
If you are interested in starting a study like that and helping with others then swing by and lend us a hand. Just name yourself accordingly so I know its you.

 

https://discord.gg/PHwpJse

 

 

I appreciate the offer, but I'm allergic to work and all forms of math.

- I have a Doctor's note.

[minitel_NA]

AdderaII, on 27 November 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

What I'd be interested in learning, would be the percentages of successful damage, inflicted on the enemy, using AP vs Premium.

 

Let's say you drive a Type 59, in a tier 8 battle where you fire and hit 10 shots (for simplicity's sake) of AP and end up with 2 bounces.

 

Out of a potential 2800 in damages, the two bounces cost you -560 so you end up with total damages of 2240 (I know that's never exact in real life, but I'm generalizing for simplicity)

 

Now lets look at just using Premium, same 10 hits, but with zero bounces, gives you 10 x 240 = 2400 in damages

 

If you only bounced one shot, the differences would favor using AP 2520 vs 2400 using Premium, with zero bounces, but once you bounce more than one shot, AP can no longer catch up to the damage inflicted by Premium ammo. AP with two bounces = 2240 vs 2400 with Premium and no bounces.

 

So basically, if you're bouncing 20% or more of your shots, it's more effective to just fire Premium all the time. Obviously, this doesn't apply to magicals, who always correctly switch between ammo types on the fly and never bounce any shots ever, but for dumb hacks like me, just firing Premium all the time,  allows me to do more damage, than to continue attempting to switch back and forth between ammo types.

 

 

.

 

 

 

Jylpah In EU server has pre-made some spreadsheet. If you collect all your replays on wotinspector.com and then call numbers from there into the spreadsheet you could analyze whatever you want.

But don’t ask me how it works.

 

in fact I know wotinspector wants to make such queries more native, like a personal account with custom stats sort of things, similar to what was on vbaddict. But by the time this is implemented, this game might be dead who knows. 

[_Alopecoid]

I_Maverick_I, on 27 November 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

Interesting Notes section added

So far this is what we got:

- Almost all tanks have a -14% to 16% damage loss when using premium ammunition, with the exception of the Chieftain Mk. 6 at -10%, and the WZ-113 at -7.5%

- The Lttb (Tier 7 Russian Light) has the most damage loss with premium shells, with a -20% loss
- List of tanks that have guns with premium shells that gain damage and lose penetration compared to their standard shells: FV4202, FV215b 183, Centurion 7/1, ISU-130, T49, Tankenstein, T49 A, SU-100Y

- Current issue with update 5.5 there is one tank that has its premium shells increase its DPM, the M7 (Tier 4 American Medium). No idea if this was intended

- Tanks that do not have a premium shell offered on the top/popular gun: St. Emil (i think that's the only one)

 

So the M7 a seal clubbing tank? I don't seal club but the fact that the APCR increases DPM, penetration, and shell velocity is a bit rediculous

[tedg5]

Great work guys, thanks. 

[CK_GoldenNuggets]

SuperMax812, on 28 November 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

 

So the M7 a seal clubbing tank? I don't seal club but the fact that the APCR increases DPM, penetration, and shell velocity is a bit rediculous

 

The tank is trash, even with all APCR spam... maybe it was intended because of how bad it is. With 2 types of ammo, and 1 that is literally better than the other in every way, maybe WG made it like this so you would be forced to spam premium in order to keep up with other tier 4s. That also sounds like a tinfoil hat idea and Im pretty sure its just a bug, but no it wont become a seal clubber tank.

[Tackywheat1]

I_Maverick_I, on 27 November 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

Interesting Notes section added

So far this is what we got:

- Almost all tanks have a -14% to 16% damage loss when using premium ammunition, with the exception of the Chieftain Mk. 6 at -10%, and the WZ-113 at -7.5%

- The Lttb (Tier 7 Russian Light) has the most damage loss with premium shells, with a -20% loss
- List of tanks that have guns with premium shells that gain damage and lose penetration compared to their standard shells: FV4202, FV215b 183, Centurion 7/1, ISU-130, T49, Tankenstein, T49 A, SU-100Y

- Current issue with update 5.5 there is one tank that has its premium shells increase its DPM, the M7 (Tier 4 American Medium). No idea if this was intended

- Tanks that do not have a premium shell offered on the top/popular gun: St. Emil (i think that's the only one)

 

for M7 do you mean premium boosts dpm and pen?

 

CK_GoldenNuggets, on 27 November 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

 

Theres no way to test that because situations and tanks are different.
If you fire 10 shots of AP 246pen on a Maus at the cheeks of another maus turret you will bounce 9 / 10 and 311 APCR, you will pen 9 / 10
So the probability you will use Premium is much higher.
The chance for 225 AP vs 270 Heat on an Is3 to pen an IS6 upper plate depends on the relative distance to the is6 in question and angle he is sitting at.

Its not possible to do a specific set of tests and say, yes you should always use AP over APCR or HEAT. Its situation specific.

 

I thought IS-3 had APCR for premium ammo