18 replies to this topic

[Herbie_N124]

Ok, 

I should probably know this but I guess I'll ask.   As we all know there is no such thing as a stupid question.   ....just stupid people. 

 

So is worth the extra time or effort to aim for  a more critical spot of a tank to inflict more possible damage, or is a pen a pen and the damage up to RNGesus?   Take that extra second to go for the engine compartment or the back of a turret?   Or is it all the same if I hit any gray pennable part of the tank (aside from track, gun, storage bins, etc).     

[__Frostbite]

Hi there. To answer your question, no. If your shot penetrates, it'll do damage. There's nowhere that you can shoot on a tank that will yield "higher damage" if you shoot that area. If it pens, it pens. 

Now, if you can, you should still aim for specific areas, like tracks, engines, ammo racks, crew areas, etc. I'm not asking you to memorize crew and module areas inside all tanks, but if you can hit areas like that, you'll eventually be knocking out crew and modules as well, which is an added bonus.

[jahawa]

I_Maverick_I, on 16 April 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

Hi there. To answer your question, no. If your shot penetrates, it'll do damage. There's nowhere that you can shoot on a tank that will yield "higher damage" if you shoot that area. If it pens, it pens. 

Now, if you can, you should still aim for specific areas, like tracks, engines, ammo racks, crew areas, etc. I'm not asking you to memorize crew and module areas inside all tanks, but if you can hit areas like that, you'll eventually be knocking out crew and modules as well, which is an added bonus.

 

I may disagree somewhat. I know there are some gurus here that can certainly respond to this. 

 

An HE shot on the rear of a TD, light or soft medium or heavy is going roll a lot more dmg than an AP or APCR shot. 

 

A shot to the tracks will pen,  but many times will do no dmg. I’ve had many a shot that vary in dmg on the same tank. Is it RNG?

Idk, but I believe some unis may respond here and verify some differences. 

 

I saw a video of a Smasher putting some HE on the cupola of a Löwe and dropping over 1k dmg. I don’t think somewhere else on the tank would have done 1k dmg. 

[Kade18]

jahawa, on 16 April 2019 - 11:44 AM, said:

 

I may disagree somewhat. I know there are some gurus here that can certainly respond to this. 

I believe some unis may respond here and verify some differences. 

Mav is literally the exact person ur asking for 

[__Frostbite]

jahawa, on 16 April 2019 - 09:44 AM, said:

 

I may disagree somewhat. I know there are some gurus here that can certainly respond to this. 

 

An HE shot on the rear of a TD, light or soft medium or heavy is going roll a lot more dmg than an AP or APCR shot. 

 

A shot to the tracks will pen,  but many times will do no dmg. I’ve had many a shot that vary in dmg on the same tank. Is it RNG?

Idk, but I believe some unis may respond here and verify some differences. 

 

I saw a video of a Smasher putting some HE on the cupola of a Löwe and dropping over 1k dmg. I don’t think somewhere else on the tank would have done 1k dmg. 

 

well yeah, but i was assuming we were just talking about 1 shell. and like, that's just the mechanism for shells. for one vehicle, penetration and damage run counter-proportionally 

 

and yeah, to answer your question it is totally RNG based for damage rolls. 

Edited by I_Maverick_I, 16 April 2019 - 06:08 PM.

[Blartch]

I can frequently take out a Lowe or Tiger 2 in 3 shots of LeKpz M41 HEP, and my T30 considers T-44's and Type 59's a one-shot... so yes, aiming location does matter.  It matters more with shells that cause high module damage (like HE/HEP/HESH), but it can work with anything.

 

Start fires.  Pop ammo racks.  Murder loaders.  Rip off tracks.  Simple hit point trades are just the beginning.

[Herbie_N124]

I_Maverick_I, on 16 April 2019 - 06:05 PM, said:

 

well yeah, but i was assuming we were just talking about 1 shell. and like, that's just the mechanism for shells. for one vehicle, penetration and damage run counter-proportionally 

 

and yeah, to answer your question it is totally RNG based for damage rolls. 

 

Yes I was was trying to look at as though I'm firing the same AP shell from the same tank x into tank x​, if all other variables remain the same, will the same AP shell generate more damage anywhere more than another, aside from a rack detonation or crew kill.    I find I'm  exposing myself  more going for a nice meaty rear shot or just hoping a turret shot will do more damage.    Looks like I'll be learning the sweet spots for ammo racks, crew locations, and starting fires.   

 

[crpl_hicks]

Right in the Tookus!

[Herbie_N124]

lol, "tuchas", and you have to spit somewhat when you say it. 

[Posit1ve_]

First off, you are correct in believing a pen is a pen, and there is no such thing as spots that will cause a shell to do more HP damage than others. Hitting a tank flush in the rear will on average do the same damage as hitting it in some silly cupola.

 

As for aiming for particular spots to do module damage; I don't think many people have crew/module locations memorized. And even then, the spots where you can do module damage are generally harder to get shots on. 

 

In general, the entire crew except the driver is located in the turret; and you can usually only kill them with hits to the side and rear of the turret;

Also, the engine and fuel tanks are also usually located in the back of the hull, so only hits to the rear of the hull can potentially damage these.

Ammo racks are one module that it's generally hard to know the location of, since they could be anywhere in the side hull, turret ring, hull floor, or turret rear; all of which are common places.

 

However, in general, it's usually not worth trying to aim for modules, even if you know where they are. 

Firstly, as mentioned, you don't often get the chance to even aim at the spots where modules are usually located

Secondly, aiming for modules usually means you're not aiming for the spot where you get the best chance to pen. Unless you have an HE shell that's going to pen; even if you hit the module, there's no guarantee that you'll damage it; and even less of a chance that hitting the module will increase your chances of winning a fight since most people usually have repair kits ready to go, so you're risking not even doing any damage at all for what is usually a pretty marginal gain

 

 

Just go for your best chance of doing damage to the enemy, and if you get lucky, you'll do some module damage.

 

As a sidenote, HE shells are guranteed to damage modules that they hit, so if you happen to find an AFK Borsig or something, by all means aim for the rear with HE and try and start a fire.

[GentleNova]

All I would add to this conversation is don’t miss the obvious places to shoot that make it easier to pen. For example, some tanks have alternating strips of varying armour on their lower hull that combined with dispersion / RNG make shooting there a dice roll, since you may aim for the spot you can pen but with bad luck you hit the small strip that you can’t pen (sooo annoying). If the tank is turning his turret and showing its turret side, shoot there instead, especially if it’s a larger, easier patch of armour to pen. I don’t know how many times I see people shooting the lower front hull and bouncing when they could have easily just penned the side of the turret when it was turning. 

[Blartch]

Some modules and crew are easier than others to hit.

 

The Tortoise's loader, for example, sits in that cupola weakspot.

All of the big slabby-sided Germans (Tigers, Panthers, etc) have a big ammo rack in the hull side immediately below the turret

British heavies and Centurions put their racks on the left side lower hull (right side as it's facing you)

IS-8's vulnerable rack is in the turret bustle

IS-7 has a rack right behind its right headlight

T-54-pattern mediums have their very tender racks right between the first and second drive wheel on their right side

Soviet SU-pattern TDs generally have a vulnerable rack right below the gun

KV and IS-1/2 tanks have very plain easy-to-immolate gas tanks on their hull sides

Tier 6-9 Germans can be set on fire by hitting their transmissions in the lower hull

Shoot the driver's hatch on anything and kill the driver.  Similarly, shoot the cupola on anything and kill the commander.

...and of course, so many tanks put their engines in the rear to be whacked by whatever means available

 

Heck if I could tell you where to shoot the loader on anything not-a-Brit-TD or the gunner on... well, any tank... but largely because what little brain capacity I have dedicated to Blitz prioritized remembering racks.  My brain likes thinking about racks, so that was relatively easy.

 

I can't say that their module models always make sense.  Surely the KV tanks or FV183 have ammo racks, but I don't think I've ever seen one explode from it (nor had the rack damaged while driving one).  With the stupid amount of ammo stores they gave the VK72, that thing should physically be nothing but one large ammo rack... yet again, never seen one explode thusly.

Edited by Blartch, 16 April 2019 - 09:31 PM.

[__The_Dude_30__]

Yeah, a penetration is a penetration. Penetrating a tank won't do more initial damage than any other part. However, notice I said initial. If you aim for the engine or the ammo rack, there is a chance to get a lot more damage by setting the tank on fire or destroying the ammo rack. Also, if you aim for the track, you may destroy it and immobilize the tank. This will give you the opportunity to inflict more damage before the tank gets away. So, theoretically, you can do more damage depending on where you aim on a tank.

[Herbie_N124]

good stuff, thx

 

[minitel_NA]

Herbie_N124, on 16 April 2019 - 04:48 PM, said:

Ok, 

I should probably know this but I guess I'll ask.   As we all know there is no such thing as a stupid question.   ....just stupid people. 

 

So is worth the extra time or effort to aim for  a more critical spot of a tank to inflict more possible damage, or is a pen a pen and the damage up to RNGesus?   Take that extra second to go for the engine compartment or the back of a turret?   Or is it all the same if I hit any gray pennable part of the tank (aside from track, gun, storage bins, etc).     

 

Making more damage by deciding where to shoot and making the extra little effort ?

yes :

 

#1 tracks 

If people shoot the same target, always go for the tracks.

You will get additional XP.

of the target is too fast for u, aim for the tracks.

That might allow you or someone to shoot again doing more damage and more XP.

 

#2 engine or gas tank

Next, every time possible, aim for the engine or gas tank.

• engine has 20% chance of fire every time it’s hit
• gas tank will ignite every single time it’s module hp is gone.

 

#3 everything else.

• ammoracks are fun, but probability is low.
• driver can be a good thing. But the poor is underfed, most times you will miss.
• Commander is useless. With or without him, as long as it’s a 3+ crew tank, nobody will notice he is dead.
• loader can slow down the reload but ammorack does the same and is wayyy more fun to kill
• shooter is annoying of course but as an enemy, you won’t notice a difference especially short range.
• The gun or turrets are fun to watch. But they are extremely difficult to kill, except the turret ring of French tanks is as tough as an onion ring. 

 

#4 HE

Every time you can shoot HE.

HE will require you to definitely think about where exactly to shoot.

If penetrated, HE will definitely damage more than the other ammo, 25%.

(Was too stupid to mention before but I should have, it is the same with Default ammo compared to prammo, and same reasoning for aiming at the weaker spots whenever possible)

contrarily to my long time belief, HE doesn’t make more damage to modules.

However, once penetrated, the trajectory isn’t a line anymore, it’s a cone, and because of that, you get way more chances of hitting tons of modules. And again there, engine or gas tanks are there to receive their daily dose of HE.

 

Edited by minitel_NA, 17 April 2019 - 07:46 PM.

[Posit1ve_]

minitel_NA, on 17 April 2019 - 02:38 PM, said:

 

Making more damage by deciding where to shoot and making the extra little effort ?

yes :

 

#1 tracks 

If people shoot the same target, always go for the tracks.

You will get additional XP.

of the target is too fast for u, aim for the tracks.

That might allow you or someone to shoot again doing more damage and more XP.

 

#2 engine or gas tank

Next, every time possible, aim for the engine or gas tank.

• engine has 20% chance of fire every time it’s hit
• gas tank will ignite every single time it’s module hp is gone.

 

#3 everything else.

• ammoracks are fun, but probability is low.
• driver can be a good thing. But the poor is underfed, most times you will miss.
• Commander is useless. With or without him, as long as it’s a 3+ crew tank, nobody will notice he is dead.
• loader can slow down the reload but ammorack does the same and is wayyy more fun to kill
• shooter is annoying of course but as an enemy, you won’t notice a difference especially short range.
• The gun or turrets are fun to watch. But they are extremely difficult to kill, except the turret ring of French tanks is as tough as an onion ring. 

 

#4 HE

Every time you can shoot HE.

HE will require you to definitely think about where exactly to shoot.

If penetrated, HE will definitely damage more than the other ammo, 25%.

(Was too stupid to mention before but I should have, it is the same with Default ammo compared to prammo, and same reasoning for aiming at the weaker spots whenever possible)

contrarily to my long time belief, HE doesn’t make more damage to modules.

However, once penetrated, the trajectory isn’t a line anymore, it’s a cone, and because of that, you get way more chances of hitting tons of modules. And again there, engine or gas tanks are there to receive their daily dose of HE.

 

I think you're underestimating the impact of a dead commander, and dead crew in general.

 

For one, I find the commander is a fairly important crewman depending on the tank. If you have a dead commander, the tank's view range drops to ridiculously low numbers. For example, a Bat Chat with double foods (no vents or optics) normally 274M view range. However if the commander is killed, the view range drops to 148.5M, essentially point blank range once enemy camo values are factored in. Moreover, an alive commander gives a 10% bonus to all other members of the crew, so traverse/aim time/accuracy/reload time all suffer as well.

 

On some tanks though, the commander is even more important; for example on tanks like Grille, and all autoloaders, the commander is also the loader, so losing the commander effectively doubles the reload time. For tanks like this, having a dead commander makes your tank essentially useless; since in addition to being unable to spot anything, your reload will be so ridiculously long that your gun is also essentially useless.

 

Also; you will definitely notice a difference if you kill the gunner. In addition to making his gun wildly inaccurate (more so than a damaged gun), his turret traverse speed drops massively; he'll have a difficult time getting his gun to traverse to target you/your weakspots; and on autoloaders, he's also responsible for loading the gun, so a dead gunner, like a dead commander makes the reload ridiculously long.

 

Moreover, since most people use double repair kits, outside of tracks, it's nearly impossible to fully destroy a module unless you get very lucky and not only hit the module, but also deal damage to it, AND deal enough module damage to destroy the module in a single shot. The number of times you've had a fully dead fuel tank, ammo rack, engine, and turret ring you can probably count on one hand. Most of the time they usually have a repair kit on hand to deal with it, and if they don't, the module will only be damaged, and damaged modules don't affect performance nearly as much as dead crew. On the other hand, if you kill a crewman, for many players, they only have one medkit (and often it's their multi kit), so if you kill a crewman, there's a good chance he's out of action for good, and pretty much losing any crewman will severely cripple the tank, more so than a dead module in every case.

Edited by Posit1ve_, 18 April 2019 - 03:35 PM.

[minitel_NA]

Posit1ve_, on 18 April 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

I think you're underestimating the impact of a dead commander, and dead crew in general.

 

 

 

 

do I need to agree with what you wrote ?

yes. Most of it is correct bad well supported.

 

do I need to mitigate ? Yes if u allow me.

 

Of course, just like you wrote to me but also to all the lurker, I will adress you in the hope that everyone might benefit some small bit.

 

what your wrote is only valid for extremely performance oriented player. For the casualist, it not useable nor advisable.

ill explain why below.

 

crews are harder to hit and damage.

• most of them are in the turret, which most of the time isn’t a weak spot regardless which angle you are coming at a tank.
• They are smaller hitbox
• their position vary from tank to tank

 

until 3 years ago, I would never use a kit on a commander.

• What is -50% viewrange when you don’t know what viewrange is and u playing a blind tank and you always die before your teammates anyways ? With the double optics then, the entire map was covered most of the time.
• was playing mostly Russian heavies, which are blind and only playable at point blank range. Viewrange was really something I couldn’t experience.
• the performances didn’t appear to make any difference. I mean you Help the loader but it’s mitigated by the ammorack. So that 10% becomes 5%. What Are those few % to the reload reload time when you only shoot once per minute or 2/3 times per game ? Just like double rations it only starts to make sense when you reached your limits of your tank capabilities. If you yolo or wait until being submerged and fight  1v4 for 30s, 5% faster won’t make u live longer or he’ll to shoot once more. Same if you have an opportunity once in a while, which is most people case.
• I was brawling so bad that in the next 20s I was sure to use a repair kit anyways. 
• Compared to a dead gunner or loader, or driver which made your tank basically inoperable, the dead commander really wasn’t noticeable.

This above I think is the case for 90% of the players if not more. Even several of those points should still apply to good players driving heavies.

 

 

i only started to notice the role of the commander once I started playing light tanks, and when I mean light tanks, I mean specifically 2 crews tanks like the spic or the AMX line. why ?

 

• you entirely rely on anticipateion. If u lose viewrange, u basically play blind,
• If you are blind, then those Russian heavies in your team also become blind, and though a lesser degree than #1, your team is at risk or won’t be able to assist you out in time.
• And I speak specifically for the AMX light line and similar tanks, each crew member fills several role. Might be driver and gunner, etc... So when you lose one member half of ur tank functions are affected. Basically it’s rare if u can even do anything anymore.

Therefore if you play light tanks and especially if you play them properly, yes a dead crew member including the commander is absolutely needed. You should resurrect him immediately.

 

 

But those arent even the main point. It’s not about how much having a dead commander or crew really affects you. As OP formulated it, It’s how possible or easy it is to increase damage to the enemy by targeting modules. 

 

In which case I stand by my post: 

for most people, to get the easiest and best result, I think you should improve HE skills, and target

1. tracks
2. engine
3. everything else

 

I am afraid of being redundant but I will detail once more why trying to get the engine before any crew member:

• it’s big, difficult to miss even without aiming much
• the location is very obvious on most tanks, nothing to learn.
• takes fire 20% of any hit, and that’s regardless of your caliber or alpha.
• Autoloaders multiple shots means serious chances of fire. With 3 shots well placed that’s already 60% chance of fire per clip.
• if u manage to damage it down to 50%, it’s like a dead driver.
• its usually in a very weakly armored place
• its usually possible to reach with a good HE

 

 In short, engine make a lot of damage , very visible, very reliably, very often, and if u manage a fire, people will always blow their multi-kit right away, and if they can’t you can easily reach 600 damage.

I usually ignite several tanks per session, if I play my amx13-57, perhaps as often as every other game. 

 

[RommelTanker]

jahawa, on 16 April 2019 - 09:44 AM, said:

 

I may disagree somewhat. I know there are some gurus here that can certainly respond to this. 

 

An HE shot on the rear of a TD, light or soft medium or heavy is going roll a lot more dmg than an AP or APCR shot. 

 

A shot to the tracks will pen,  but many times will do no dmg. I’ve had many a shot that vary in dmg on the same tank. Is it RNG?

Idk, but I believe some unis may respond here and verify some differences. 

 

I saw a video of a Smasher putting some HE on the cupola of a Löwe and dropping over 1k dmg. I don’t think somewhere else on the tank would have done 1k dmg. 

 

At tier X the average amount of HE pen required to deal any significant damage to the rear armor of a tank is probably somewhere in the 150mm region. Only 4 HE shells in the game pack that much pen at those tiers so its kinda irrelevant. HE does deal more module damage however if it doesn't pen so low pen or not it's still worth bringing a few shells. Its also good for blowing off tracks.

[kidthekid01]

The only situation that it would matter is with HE, if you splash it. First off, it is generally better to use AP if you can't pen a tank with HE. However, there are times that HE is usefull. For example, if you shoot at a very low HP tank, then you can use HE to guarantee the kill. Another example is if you are shooting at a tank you can't pen with AP or premium rounds. HE can splash and deal damage anyways. If you aim at a spot with high armor, though, HE won't do very much and may not deal any damage, depending on the armor thickness. However, if you splash on a weak spot, you will deal more damage than splashing on a spot with good armor.