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Please Nerf the Charioteer - A Logical Argument


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michaeltsoon #1 Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:09 AM

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Let's be honest here. The new tier 8 British TD is most certainly broken, and merits a nerf. Why, you may ask? Well there are multiple reasons, the most prominent and glaring of which will be listed below:

-The absurdly high DPM. I'm sorry, I don't care what kind of [edited]excuses you make up about the Charioteer being a "glasscannon" and whatnot, the equivalent of an FV4202 gun existing at tier 8 should not be allowed to happen. 3300 DPM with regular AP, and nearly 4200 with HESH is ridiculous. In comparison, the WZ-120 FT, a certified OP premium tank, has just 3000. In fact, the HESH penetration exceeds that of many same-tier AP rounds, so they can be easily spammed and require very little skill. 

 

-HE-resistant armor. This isn't really the tank's fault, but it still has to be said. What kind of a genius came up with a consumable that renders HE-penetrations less effective than AP rounds? You heard that right folks, spamming HE at the British TDs might not even work. It may very well backfire on you, because the spall liner (or whatever it's called now) reduces damage taken from HE rounds by a significant amount. At this point, it's probably better to be safe rather than sorry, and I won't even bother using HE against these new TDs. I highly recommend that you do the same. 

 

-Mobility. This one should be fairly self-explanatory. 48 kph with a P/W ratio of almost 24? Wth? For reference, compare the mobility of the Charioteer to that of the T-44 (a fairly mobile Soviet medium). Apart from traverse, the Charioteer has the T-44 beat in every department. 

 

-Ability to manufacture shots. I would have less of a problem with this tank if its accuracy wasn't so high, and its soft stats so brilliant. Good stats on paper don't count for anything if you can't make it work in reality. (For example, just look at the Grille 15 in-game, or pretty much every Second World War Soviet vehicle in real life. ) Unfortunately, the Charioteer cannot be described as such. It has workable accuracy; (very good accuracy, actually. 1.8 aim time and .322 dispersion with .16 bloom on the move) a fully traversable turret; and -10 deg of gun depression. This also leads up to my next point.

 

-Difficulty to counter. The Charioteer can dish out 440-alpha shells every 6.6 seconds, which means that taking the first-shot advantage into consideration, it should theoretically be able to dispatch almost every tier 7 vehicle in just 13.2 seconds. 19.8 if the target has more than 1320 HP, although that rarely happens. How exactly is that balanced? What are players supposed to do? They can't run away, can't angle, or even out-shoot the Charioteer. 

 

-Lastly, I think the number of average players pulling unicum numbers is proof enough that the Charioteer needs to be re-balanced. The number of 48-55% players doing better in this than they normally do in their tier 10s is astonishing. And no, please, do not refute me by saying that just because unicums are doing well, doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. First off, like I just said, average players are doing exceptionally well in the Charioteer. Secondly, it doesn't matter whether you are a unicum. 2500 + average damage in a tier where 2000+ is excellent is not a fluke. It's because the tank is imbalanced and overpowered. Simple as that.

 

To sum up, I firmly believe that the Charioteer is breaking the meta, and needs to be nerfed. Do keep in mind that this situation is fundamentally different from that of the AMX 50 100 and/or the T49 because unlike those two, the Charioteer has no obvious counters even for a unicum, and especially not an average player. I know there will be many counterarguments, and probably insults thrown my way, so I won't bother addressing any of them in this original post. Instead, I will be going through them one by one and answer them on an individual basis. 

 

Thank you for your time and attention, o7.

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dropdeadred #2 Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:23 AM

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That explains a lot, I shot its turret flat angle facing me at 320m distance with HE from my T95. Did about 200hp or 230hp dammage. That HE shell has 1200HE and about 88-90mmpen (This was prior to them nerfing its gun twice in one week) It's all good now though, I "learned to play" and am having a great time.


Edited by dropdeadred, 26 June 2019 - 02:25 AM.


dropdeadred #3 Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:28 AM

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btw devs whats your favorite color? 

Gavidoc01 #4 Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:56 AM

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I’ll agree to the equipment complaint. The spall liner and speed boost this thing gets is ridiculous. When I’m in my charioteer facing another charioteer, challenger or Conway  they are the only tanks will fire apcr at and it’s apcr pen is somewhat anemic. 

Edited by Gavidoc01, 26 June 2019 - 02:56 AM.

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BodyCount37 #5 Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:17 AM

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To be honest if they removed the spall-liner It would be slightly more bearable since Charioteer drivers would be punished for being over aggressive and playing it like a medium on LSD, this would at least hinder its effectiveness and durability and mediums tanks could at least punch back with a 300 damage and some module damage. It would become a more conventional TD with players sticking more second line then blazing DPM in your face.

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rosgrim #6 Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:35 AM

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All true, but let me say ..."in theory".

To be clear I'm pretty sure you are right, but I'm not 100% sure. Or at the least may be it is not so dramatic.

 

You know better than me that looking at one 40% player game doesn't explain the reality of the game dynamic.

A 40% player doing well 1 game the other 5 will do zero or something like that.

I would like to see real stats in a while. 

Another doubt I got come from the fact that me and my clan mate (pretty sure it happens also to you) are Mastering the tank an embarrassing number of time with DMG not so high as expected (compared to the DPM of the tank) and i didn't see any 40% getting that. So eventually the DPM (ok consumable, speed etc etc but basically we are talking about that, right ?) may be is not enough to make the thing broken ?

 

Anyway it is very simple: nerf the HESH pen. The End



Kaos_Dynamo #7 Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:42 AM

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Thx for the reminder about the spall liner - I completely forgot they added that! Change of strat immediate

__Frostbite #8 Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:05 AM

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Spall liner: broken

Consumables: plain stupid, why they should get it and other shouldn't

DPM: broken

Gun handling: great (not amazing, but definitely stronger than most)

Penetration: broken

Alpha: high

Mobility: great

Armor: bad

HP: bad

 

Yeah, it needs a nerf.


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AOT_Jaeger2 #9 Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:21 AM

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To all of you out there saying “oh, you can’t base it off unicums, unicums make any tanks look OP,” this right here. This thing has a reload comparable to the 105mm on the Jagdtiger 88, except it’s got more pen, more alpha, better accuracy and gun handling, and a 440 alpha shell with ultra high pen. Oh, and it’s on a mobile and turreted gun platform. These two tanks are the same tier. It’s just ridiculous 

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e___18989 #10 Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:32 AM

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View PostAOT_Jaeger2, on 25 June 2019 - 11:21 PM, said:

To all of you out there saying “oh, you can’t base it off unicums, unicums make any tanks look OP,” this right here. This thing has a reload comparable to the 105mm on the Jagdtiger 88, except it’s got more pen, more alpha, better accuracy and gun handling, and a 440 alpha shell with ultra high pen. Oh, and it’s on a mobile and turreted gun platform. These two tanks are the same tier. It’s just ridiculous 


Agreed. And the Jag. 88 (105) gun is an excellent gun for the tier! But it is nothing compared to the hesh round of the Charioteer. 

 

Just nerf the hesh pen to 120. Problem solved.


 

 

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__V_O_P__ #11 Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:48 AM

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Are people loading into the game and thinking “oh s**t” Red has a Charioteer? Are they meta changing like the pre-nerf 183? Are there hordes of them on both teams? No, no, and no. I’m sure they will balance it somewhat but I’m surprised how shrill some of the arguments are against it.

I’d like to see the data WG have (which we don’t?) - I suspect that the tank is good for some and useless for others. Nerf the ROF and you keep the uniqueness of the vehicle, whereas changing the HESH pen makes it a different tank I think. And let’s be frank the spall liner doesn’t make it OP.

BTW Michael, do you have the Charioteer? I don’t see it in your stats on Blitzstars. It has awful turret traverse and as a result is very vulnerable in CQB. 

Edited by __V_O_P__, 26 June 2019 - 07:52 AM.


WipWapJaws #12 Posted 26 June 2019 - 11:48 AM

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I dont see it.  IMO it is just an up tier Hellcat.  

 

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Edited by WipWapJaws, 26 June 2019 - 12:08 PM.


Blartch #13 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:03 PM

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Don't worry... since it isn't a made-up pay-2-win commiewagon, it'll surely be nerfed to irrelevance within a month or two.  Enjoy it while it lasts.

_Cletus #14 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:41 PM

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I do think it's OP.  The HESH really makes the tank right now.  This has been my first experience with HESH, it's weird in what it will pen and what it won't, it's somewhat unreliable.  So some games I'll pull 3000+ damage but I've had a few where I can't make it work.  I plan to study up on HESH today and get a better understanding of it's penetration mechanics.


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Gavidoc01 #15 Posted 26 June 2019 - 01:29 PM

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The issue with the HESH pen is there are a large number of players at Tier VII who are probably not familiar with it since prior to the charioteer you didn't see it till tier IX. If they nerf the HESH pen then they need to in essence give it a different gun since it's the FV4202 gun.

 

If they make changes they shouldn't nerf the hesh pen. The only thing besides the equipment that needs some adjustment IMO is the ROF. It doesn't have a massive alpha HE potential with low pen like other TD's at the tier. What is has is massive pen with consistent lower alpha HE potential. 


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cheesehead247365 #16 Posted 26 June 2019 - 01:30 PM

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I agree.  I chalk this up to another complete oversight/cluster you know what by wargaming.  Happy birthday suckers!

Morphman11 #17 Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:51 PM

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It’s not that OP. It’s just a decent little TD. Pretty much a Hellcat with HESH. The pen stats shouldn’t be touched, they are balanced. The unique consumables should be spread out to the others vehicles or removed entirely.

__Crusader6__ #18 Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:15 PM

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The unique/specific consumables and provisions need to be deleted. 

 

Then the tank will be balanced effectively. 


 
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__Frostbite #19 Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:11 PM

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Replace HESH with HEAT (pen at 280mm), nerf the APCR pen to 210mm, keep HE as the low pen HESH that it already is. Bring reload to 7 seconds with Rammer.

 

Remove spall liner and new consumables. Done.

 

Literally, that fixed the DPM issue, and as long as high pen HESH is involved, there's very little reason to shoot APCR. Even if the DPM is nerfed to the ground, people will still spam HESH because it's still going to be more effective. I like the concept of premium shells having lower pen and higher damage, but if the penetration is still enough to go through heavies at the same tier frontally, it's always going to be impossible to balance.


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Gavidoc01 #20 Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:56 PM

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View Post_Ntwadumela, on 26 June 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

Replace HESH with HEAT (pen at 280mm), nerf the APCR pen to 210mm, keep HE as the low pen HESH that it already is. Bring reload to 7 seconds with Rammer.

 

Remove spall liner and new consumables. Done.

 

Literally, that fixed the DPM issue, and as long as high pen HESH is involved, there's very little reason to shoot APCR. Even if the DPM is nerfed to the ground, people will still spam HESH because it's still going to be more effective. I like the concept of premium shells having lower pen and higher damage, but if the penetration is still enough to go through heavies at the same tier frontally, it's always going to be impossible to balance.

Disagree. You nerf the reload and it neuters the DPM effectively without having to remove the HESH ammo. 

 

What you propose is overkill.


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