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When will they ever buff the Chieftain T/95 to relevance


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IronBehemoth #1 Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:35 PM

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I know they've buffed the armor slightly, but HE on the tumor was never really a problem. On top of that, they just made the already invincible turret stronger, which is honestly not improving anything. And for that, they nerfed the side armor even harder, making, overall, this tank worse than it was before the "buff."

 

Right now, the chieftain is basically a med, except slower, with less mobility, less dpm AND less alpha AND less pen. Arguably, with the weak lower plate, side armor, and tumor, it's got worse armor than its med counterparts too. (Not to mention its lack of mobility, so you can't trick bounces into your side)

 

I think to bring this tank back to relevance, it needs higher alpha, with the same overall dpm. This will make peekaboo with the tumor more rewarding, and set it apart from the (vastly) superior tech tree caernervon. On top of that, greater acceleration and mobility would allow it to fight mediums without a high top speed making it a medium.


Edited by IronBehemoth, 16 September 2019 - 07:38 PM.


Mako__Reizei___ #2 Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:39 PM

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Perhaps decrease the top speed in exchange for better terrain resistance and hull traverse speed and increase the amount of shots it could put out in one minute by one more round? Haven't really seen the Chieften's stats, so I'm not really sure what to balance here, I just typed up what I thought might bring it into the game based on what you put there

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IronBehemoth #3 Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:45 PM

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View PostMako__Reizei___, on 16 September 2019 - 07:39 PM, said:

Perhaps decrease the top speed in exchange for better terrain resistance and hull traverse speed and increase the amount of shots it could put out in one minute by one more round? Haven't really seen the Chieften's stats, so I'm not really sure what to balance here, I just typed up what I thought might bring it into the game based on what you put there

I feel like its speed is what sets it apart from other heavies. I do agree on the DPM point, though. Basically, I think it should be more like the t10 chieftain, with a strong turret but weak tumor, VERY high dpm, and no side armor, but a high top speed.

Right now, unlike the t10, its tumor is about 4x larger, its got no alpha, and its dpm is mediocre. Also, it's mobility is worse I believe.

-EDIT-

So the t8 chieftain has a listed top speed of 42, but its effective engine power/terrain res is so poor that it rarely if ever hits that. Ive found that i get to maybe 40 on a downhill and thats it.


Edited by IronBehemoth, 16 September 2019 - 07:48 PM.


RommelTanker #4 Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:55 PM

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View PostMako__Reizei___, on 16 September 2019 - 11:39 AM, said:

Perhaps decrease the top speed in exchange for better terrain resistance and hull traverse speed and increase the amount of shots it could put out in one minute by one more round? Haven't really seen the Chieften's stats, so I'm not really sure what to balance here, I just typed up what I thought might bring it into the game based on what you put there

 

The Chieftain's selling points are decent mobility with a rapid firing 90mm and a dummy thick turret. 

 

It offsets this with crap hull armor and a tumor the size of the Rock of Gibraltar. It's basically a Tier 8 Chieftain Mk6


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IronBehemoth #5 Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:59 PM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 16 September 2019 - 07:55 PM, said:

 

The Chieftain's selling points are decent mobility with a rapid firing 90mm and a dummy thick turret. 

 

It offsets this with crap hull armor and a tumor the size of the Rock of Gibraltar. It's basically a Tier 8 Chieftain Mk6

Problem is the "rapid fire 90mm" has only mediocre DPM for t8, while the Mk6 has very high dpm for t10, almost comparable to antitanks. In addition, the Mk6 has the alpha of other heavies, whereas the chieftain has less alpha than most meds. This makes the gun, overall, very poor, while the Mk6's gun is its greatest feature.

Furthermore, the Chieftain's tumor is far larger than the Mk6, making its turret armor a lot more difficult to take advantage of than the Mk6's.

Lastly, the mobility is pretty trash. Not really a selling point when meds outclass it in the heavy aspects as well as med ones..

 

If they wanted it to be a mini Mk6, they'd give it 300 alpha to the Mk6's 400, and they'd buff the dpm to 2500 from 2200. (Mk6 has about 3.2k, a full 1k more only 2 tiers up)


Edited by IronBehemoth, 16 September 2019 - 08:01 PM.


RommelTanker #6 Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:27 PM

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View PostIronBehemoth, on 16 September 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

Problem is the "rapid fire 90mm" has only mediocre DPM for t8, while the Mk6 has very high dpm for t10, almost comparable to antitanks. In addition, the Mk6 has the alpha of other heavies, whereas the chieftain has less alpha than most meds. This makes the gun, overall, very poor, while the Mk6's gun is its greatest feature.

Furthermore, the Chieftain's tumor is far larger than the Mk6, making its turret armor a lot more difficult to take advantage of than the Mk6's.

Lastly, the mobility is pretty trash. Not really a selling point when meds outclass it in the heavy aspects as well as med ones..

 

If they wanted it to be a mini Mk6, they'd give it 300 alpha to the Mk6's 400, and they'd buff the dpm to 2500 from 2200. (Mk6 has about 3.2k, a full 1k more only 2 tiers up)

 

  1. The Chieftain T/95's 90mm gun has DPM which is on par with most Tier 8 mediums, and in fact it even out DPMs a small majority of Tier 8. By comparison, the Chieftain Mk6's 120mm is inferior in terms of DPM to every single Tier 10 medium except for the WZ-121 and AMX 30B. 
  2. The average gun caliber of Tier 8 heavies is 103mm. So basically a 105mm gun. Chieftain has a 90mm so it's not too far behind that. Tier 8 lights and meds almost all have 90mm guns(because in terms of historical development, most of Tier 8 rests at the late 1950's to the early 1960's. At the time, the preferred gun caliber of allied vehicles was 90mm, as it was found to pack sufficient velocity and penetrating force while also being capable of causing severe damage on penetration. It also simplified logistics heavily.)
  3. The Chieftain's mobility is in fact superior to every single Tier 8 heavy in the game, falling behind only the Chrysler K on medium and soft ground horsepower/ton. Yes, that includes the AMX 50 100, the most mobile Tier 8 "heavy" in the game at the moment. The Chieftain is no slouch when it comes to moving around.
  4. The T/95's tumor is roughly the same size as the Mk6's tumor, possibly only just slightly larger. And it was buffed so only 15cm+ HE can pen it. So if you get penned it's your own damn fault.
  5. 300 alpha damage at tier 8 is reserved for 100mm guns, not a 90mm gun. And 2,500 DPM on a heavy is insane (although both Tigers have that much and a tier lower to boot; but they have their own drawbacks [what is gun depression]). 

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dport02 #7 Posted 17 September 2019 - 12:29 AM

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Kinda funny the tier 10 chieftain has a MUCH smaller hatch, and 8 second reload for 400 alpha (I know it’s tier 10)

andyllinger #8 Posted 17 September 2019 - 01:00 AM

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Yes please.

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IronBehemoth #9 Posted 17 September 2019 - 01:18 AM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 16 September 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

 

  1. The Chieftain T/95's 90mm gun has DPM which is on par with most Tier 8 mediums, and in fact it even out DPMs a small majority of Tier 8. By comparison, the Chieftain Mk6's 120mm is inferior in terms of DPM to every single Tier 10 medium except for the WZ-121 and AMX 30B. 
  2. The average gun caliber of Tier 8 heavies is 103mm. So basically a 105mm gun. Chieftain has a 90mm so it's not too far behind that. Tier 8 lights and meds almost all have 90mm guns(because in terms of historical development, most of Tier 8 rests at the late 1950's to the early 1960's. At the time, the preferred gun caliber of allied vehicles was 90mm, as it was found to pack sufficient velocity and penetrating force while also being capable of causing severe damage on penetration. It also simplified logistics heavily.)
  3. The Chieftain's mobility is in fact superior to every single Tier 8 heavy in the game, falling behind only the Chrysler K on medium and soft ground horsepower/ton. Yes, that includes the AMX 50 100, the most mobile Tier 8 "heavy" in the game at the moment. The Chieftain is no slouch when it comes to moving around.
  4. The T/95's tumor is roughly the same size as the Mk6's tumor, possibly only just slightly larger. And it was buffed so only 15cm+ HE can pen it. So if you get penned it's your own damn fault.
  5. 300 alpha damage at tier 8 is reserved for 100mm guns, not a 90mm gun. And 2,500 DPM on a heavy is insane (although both Tigers have that much and a tier lower to boot; but they have their own drawbacks [what is gun depression]). 

1. I'll concede the DPM at t8 point, though not the one about it being tier for tier better than the t10 mk6. Here's why: First, the t10 heavies don't have that much of a dpm jump from t8 to t10. Generally their alpha gets higher and pen, but the dpm itself doesn't increase much. By comparison, the t10 chieftain has much higher dpm than most its t10 counterparts. THis is accentuated by the higher alpha. Whereas you can shave off a couple seconds shooting a tank with 400 hp left, the chieftain will always have to wait those extra 7 seconds to shoot twice and kill that 400 hp tank. In addition, because it requires more shots to do the same dpm, you have a greater chance of bouncing shots, thereby lowering dpm. This is an even greater problem considering hte chieftain's paltry 200 mm pen.

2. While its nice that you know all that, Wot Blitz has never actually cared about historical accuracy. And the fact remains the 90mm alpha simply isn't that great. This tank has 1200 avg damage (not my average damage; the average players average damage), and you'll not ever find a review that rates it above "mediocre." Even the unicums reviewing this tank can't find replays above the 2.5-3k range. Finally, its all relative because real life guns don't do damage in terms of points. 

3. The chieftain still underperforms in regards to the blitzhangar stats. I've tested and the fastest it goes is 40, not 42, and thats on flat/slight downhill. 

4. No, the tumor is far larger, a lot easier to see, and arguing the tumor isn't even relevant to this argument, as I said keep the tumor and raise the alpha.

5. As explained earlier, 2.5k dpm really isn't that insane when you consider the drawbacks. Also, the tigers you speak of don't need depression when their armor is ridiculous. Also, they have very good turret traverse and accuracy.

 

All in all, it's obvious that no matter what blitzhangar says, the tank is still an under performer in the game, outclassed by both its tech tree and premium variants. This is evident by the average player stats, and the unicums that review it agree.


Edited by IronBehemoth, 17 September 2019 - 01:21 AM.


RommelTanker #10 Posted 17 September 2019 - 05:15 AM

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View PostIronBehemoth, on 16 September 2019 - 05:18 PM, said:

1. I'll concede the DPM at t8 point, though not the one about it being tier for tier better than the t10 mk6. Here's why: First, the t10 heavies don't have that much of a dpm jump from t8 to t10. Generally their alpha gets higher and pen, but the dpm itself doesn't increase much. By comparison, the t10 chieftain has much higher dpm than most its t10 counterparts. THis is accentuated by the higher alpha. Whereas you can shave off a couple seconds shooting a tank with 400 hp left, the chieftain will always have to wait those extra 7 seconds to shoot twice and kill that 400 hp tank. In addition, because it requires more shots to do the same dpm, you have a greater chance of bouncing shots, thereby lowering dpm. This is an even greater problem considering hte chieftain's paltry 200 mm pen.

2. While its nice that you know all that, Wot Blitz has never actually cared about historical accuracy. And the fact remains the 90mm alpha simply isn't that great. This tank has 1200 avg damage (not my average damage; the average players average damage), and you'll not ever find a review that rates it above "mediocre." Even the unicums reviewing this tank can't find replays above the 2.5-3k range. Finally, its all relative because real life guns don't do damage in terms of points. 

3. The chieftain still underperforms in regards to the blitzhangar stats. I've tested and the fastest it goes is 40, not 42, and thats on flat/slight downhill. 

4. No, the tumor is far larger, a lot easier to see, and arguing the tumor isn't even relevant to this argument, as I said keep the tumor and raise the alpha.

5. As explained earlier, 2.5k dpm really isn't that insane when you consider the drawbacks. Also, the tigers you speak of don't need depression when their armor is ridiculous. Also, they have very good turret traverse and accuracy.

 

All in all, it's obvious that no matter what blitzhangar says, the tank is still an under performer in the game, outclassed by both its tech tree and premium variants. This is evident by the average player stats, and the unicums that review it agree.

 

Lol Tiger 1 has ridiculous armor? Where's your sample group proving this? This isn't WW2, it's Blitz and you said yourself that they've never cared about historical accuracy, hence why a PzKpfw VI Ausf H has the long barreled 8,8cm KwK 43 L/71 found on the Tiger 2 and sees tanks from the early to late 1950's, not mid 1930's M4 Shermans.


Edited by RommelTanker, 17 September 2019 - 04:10 PM.

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I'm probably one of the only players in the game with over 5,500 WN8 in a Tier 1 tank. If that's not the most useless achievement ever I dunno what is.

HE does more damage than AP... in loopy land. 


Morphman11 #11 Posted 17 September 2019 - 06:13 AM

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View PostIronBehemoth, on 16 September 2019 - 07:35 PM, said:

I know they've buffed the armor slightly, but HE on the tumor was never really a problem. On top of that, they just made the already invincible turret stronger, which is honestly not improving anything. And for that, they nerfed the side armor even harder, making, overall, this tank worse than it was before the "buff."

 

Right now, the chieftain is basically a med, except slower, with less mobility, less dpm AND less alpha AND less pen. Arguably, with the weak lower plate, side armor, and tumor, it's got worse armor than its med counterparts too. (Not to mention its lack of mobility, so you can't trick bounces into your side)

 

I think to bring this tank back to relevance, it needs higher alpha, with the same overall dpm. This will make peekaboo with the tumor more rewarding, and set it apart from the (vastly) superior tech tree caernervon. On top of that, greater acceleration and mobility would allow it to fight mediums without a high top speed making it a medium.

 

If you did any research, you'd notice that the chieftain has a better dpm than the vast majority of its tier 8 counter parts. The chieftain also has a higher dpm and alpha than the caer. And lack of mobility? Are you drunk? Its fairly mobile for a heavy with a decent power to weight. The sides also are only 1mm worse than the Caer which obviously should show you that this is not a sidescraping vehicle for calibers above 90mm. The only point you have is the tumor and that is not much because it is more of an annoyance. That tumor being a factor is up to the player and obviously you aren't good enough to realize that it is offset to one size. So you have absolutely no valid points to go off on.



Morphman11 #12 Posted 17 September 2019 - 06:16 AM

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Not to mention this vehicle can go 20 in reverse which is amazing for a heavy.

Mako__Reizei___ #13 Posted 17 September 2019 - 10:58 AM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 16 September 2019 - 09:15 PM, said:

 

Lol Tiger 1 has ridiculous armor? Where's your sample group proving this? This isn't WW2, it's Blitz and you said yourself that they've never cared about historical accuracy, hence why a PzKpfw IV Ausf H has the long barreled 8,8cm KwK 43 L/71 found on the Tiger 2 and sees tanks from the early to late 1950's, not mid 1930's M4 Shermans.

Would agree with Tiger having ridiculous armor if it was the Kuromorimine Tiger 1 or Tiger 131 since both are tier 6 where 5.5 aftermath reduced the amount of tier 5 and perhaps tier 6 threats as well.


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IronBehemoth #14 Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:49 PM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 17 September 2019 - 05:15 AM, said:

 

Lol Tiger 1 has ridiculous armor? Where's your sample group proving this? This isn't WW2, it's Blitz and you said yourself that they've never cared about historical accuracy, hence why a PzKpfw IV Ausf H has the long barreled 8,8cm KwK 43 L/71 found on the Tiger 2 and sees tanks from the early to late 1950's, not mid 1930's M4 Shermans.

Tiger P. Also, where's the WW2 background on tanks like the smasher, is3 defender, and dracula? [edited]. 

View PostMorphman11, on 17 September 2019 - 06:13 AM, said:

 

If you did any research, you'd notice that the chieftain has a better dpm than the vast majority of its tier 8 counter parts. The chieftain also has a higher dpm and alpha than the caer. And lack of mobility? Are you drunk? Its fairly mobile for a heavy with a decent power to weight. The sides also are only 1mm worse than the Caer which obviously should show you that this is not a sidescraping vehicle for calibers above 90mm. The only point you have is the tumor and that is not much because it is more of an annoyance. That tumor being a factor is up to the player and obviously you aren't good enough to realize that it is offset to one size. So you have absolutely no valid points to go off on.

That's rich coming from someone with 26 total battles, all of which are at t2. If you actually knew anything about the game, you would understand that the caern has far higher dpm and pen. It's also got far better armor, with a strong upper plate and a turret that's surprisingly bouncy. Also, you fail to acknowledge that literally every player that knows something about the game agrees its an underpowered tank, confirmed by player stats worldwide. Also, and lastly, you obviously didn't read where I stated the only mobility buff it needs is terrain res so it can actually reach its listed speed. Nice argument that the tumor is not a problem at all because its offset. I'll be sure to find walls to the right of every hulldown spot so its not a problem, because they definitely exist in the ideal hulldown spot of every map in the game.



MudkipAtWar #15 Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:54 PM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 17 September 2019 - 01:15 AM, said:

 

Lol Tiger 1 has ridiculous armor? Where's your sample group proving this? This isn't WW2, it's Blitz and you said yourself that they've never cared about historical accuracy, hence why a PzKpfw IV Ausf H has the long barreled 8,8cm KwK 43 L/71 found on the Tiger 2 and sees tanks from the early to late 1950's, not mid 1930's M4 Shermans.

i dont think we have a panzer 4 with an 88


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RommelTanker #16 Posted 17 September 2019 - 04:10 PM

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View PostMudkipAtWar, on 17 September 2019 - 06:54 AM, said:

i dont think we have a panzer 4 with an 88

oh shi-

 

i'll fix


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I have discovered the glory of the Tiger 1. 

He who types many stupid essays and boasts about bad Leopard PT A stats.

I'm probably one of the only players in the game with over 5,500 WN8 in a Tier 1 tank. If that's not the most useless achievement ever I dunno what is.

HE does more damage than AP... in loopy land. 





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