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Buffing The T-44 and M-26 Pershing


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Theroadrunner36 #1 Posted 13 November 2019 - 07:36 AM

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World of tanks has been pretty great over the last year...(Though I did take a break for about 6 months I still kept up with game news) . It has been a year full of buffs and nerfs in many regards however tanks such as the M-26 Pershing and T-44 have really started to struggle as they have been powercreeped a bit by newer tanks and premiums. Take the T-54 Mod. 1 as an example...its is nearly identical to the T-44, however with one key difference, it loses a bit of mobility for far more effective armor (which to be frank is broken). The T-44 meanwhile has very little armor and teaches you how to not get shot at all in the tank, but at the very next tier is the T-54, a medium which can reliably fall back on its armor profile and is often seen hull down in front of same tier or even higher tiered vehicles. The T-44 should teach you how to deal with such engagements. As of right now it is pretty good everywhere except for its armor, which would make this tank a far better trainer for high tiers. A buff similar to the buff the tank received on PC (but not to the degree that it did there because WOT PC has +2/-2 MM.) would really help this tank in situations where it should be able to poke out and damage an enemy vehicle. It should however its hull should still be pennable and allow to still be balanced for other tanks. Its mobility, gun depression and penetration should all stay the same as they are all pretty good where they are right now, same goes for the armor. The main thing should just be the turret which should teach players how to go hull down like the should in Soviet vehicles and be more useful to the team. (The armor should also be pennable by TDs and Gold because you also want the players to learn to not sit out in the Open....they are still a med after all. The turret roof should also be weak as to allow players who get above the tank to pen the turret because, like the T-54, and the tier X meds, the turret roof should be a weak point.

 

Now for the M26 Pershing. Now this tank isn't meant to be a hull down beast, it should be an all rounder, players who have just graduated from the T20 should look forward to this tank as it allows them to be able to take a hit (at least some of the time, unlike the T20), and also have very good gun depression. Now all of these things are great except the tank is lacking in two key aspects: Penetration and DPM. The M-26's counterpart he T26E4 (Cyka Pershing) which is a overall slower tank, has a better reload and has 35mm more penetration on its standard rounds. This is another instance of powercreep, with a tank being added which is similar to the old tank, but beats it out in many aspects, usually sacrificing placebo levels of speed. The M-26 Pershing isn't a Cyka Pershing, and isn't meant to be a hull down, front on beast. It is meant to stay at mid range and put in well aimed shots to the enemy, but how can it do this if its gun has very little pen and reload is worse than its heavier counterpart? I call for a buff that brings this tanks gun up to the level of the Cyka Pershing's. It should have a 6.5 second reload and should also have 205mm of pen, or possibly even more. If the M-26 receives a buff like this it will surely do better out on the battlefield. It will be able to hit its opponents better at range and have its mantlet to bounce those pesky light, and medium tank rounds off of its turret. This will get players ready for the M-46 Patton, which has a similar playstyle, of being mid range, where your armor is useful and to put in good, well aimed shots into your opponents. I would also like to call for a nerf on the Cyka Pershing's pen (I know it wont happen) possibly even the reload, but still give the M-26 a more level playing field to help fight its opponents, many of whom are much better alternatives.

 

If any of you guys have further suggestions or critiques, please let me know down below,

Best Regards ~ RoadRunner


Edited by Theroadrunner36, 13 November 2019 - 07:36 AM.


__Frostbite #2 Posted 13 November 2019 - 01:39 PM

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T-54 mod 1 has been powercreeped a lot. Its only advantage over the T-44 is frontal armor that gets penned by basically anything now by just loading premium. All of these new tanks that have been added to Tier 8 have had no problem going through the front of the tank. I'd take the T-44 any day over the Mod 1 now, because it has a more accurate gun, better DPM, more gun depression (7 degrees vs 5 is a huge difference) and more mobility.

 

As for the Super Pershing, it's easily worse than the Pershing now and needs a pretty significant buff to stay relevant. The tank is much slower, and its bloom on traverse/rotation of .2 is just pathetic, making it really tough to make quick shots, which is kind of what a medium needs to do. The armor is also riddled with weakspots, and HEAT shells don't even seem to have a problem with the frontal spaced armor. For what it's worth, the Pershing has a better armor profile than the T26E4, because its turret armor is actually useful and doesn't get reliably penned by Comets who know how to aim. 

 

It's not to say that the T-44 and M26 haven't been powercreeped as well, but if I'm being honest, there's more pressing issues to deal with--like the Italian mediums that need the biggest nerf of the century.


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Theroadrunner36 #3 Posted 14 November 2019 - 06:39 AM

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View Post__Frostbite, on 13 November 2019 - 05:39 AM, said:

T-54 mod 1 has been powercreeped a lot. Its only advantage over the T-44 is frontal armor that gets penned by basically anything now by just loading premium. All of these new tanks that have been added to Tier 8 have had no problem going through the front of the tank. I'd take the T-44 any day over the Mod 1 now, because it has a more accurate gun, better DPM, more gun depression (7 degrees vs 5 is a huge difference) and more mobility.

 

As for the Super Pershing, it's easily worse than the Pershing now and needs a pretty significant buff to stay relevant. The tank is much slower, and its bloom on traverse/rotation of .2 is just pathetic, making it really tough to make quick shots, which is kind of what a medium needs to do. The armor is also riddled with weakspots, and HEAT shells don't even seem to have a problem with the frontal spaced armor. For what it's worth, the Pershing has a better armor profile than the T26E4, because its turret armor is actually useful and doesn't get reliably penned by Comets who know how to aim. 

 

It's not to say that the T-44 and M26 haven't been powercreeped as well, but if I'm being honest, there's more pressing issues to deal with--like the Italian mediums that need the biggest nerf of the century.


I definitely agree with you on the Proget Mediums (seriously wg implemented these tanks with very little thought......why are the auto reloaders not balanced like wot PC). I do however disagree with your critiques on the T-44 and M-26, firstly I said I wanted these tanks to follow the line better and train players for tier X. 

The T-44 while *slightly* more mobile has really terrible armor (also keep in mind what I said about these tanks needing to teach players how to play certain lines). The T-54 Mod. 1 still beats it in a one on one, actually has the ability to troll lots of tanks who aim at it-reliably, with just a bit of shaking you can really throw off opponents who don't know how to aim. The dispersion values on both tanks are really similar but, the aim time on the 54 is actually better. While gun depression can really help in a fight, its pretty useless if your turret gets penned whenever you poke it out of cover. What I asked for was a turret buff which would help tankers on their grind to tier X and nothing much else, hopefully a buff like this can really help this tank shine on the battlefield. (If you really want to see powercreep though, just look at the 44-100, extra everything, less mobility, and 75mm spaced armor on the sides. This is frankly just annoying, thankfully like the T22 tier X medium, it is a rare tank to see, let alone be driven well.)

 

Now for the M-26 Pershing. I called for a penetration buff on the tank and a bit higher DPM. The T26E4 is actually more consistent when it comes to bouncing rounds if you know how to wiggle your turret between shots, its turret traverse doesn't mean anything, because in all honesty it plays more like a heavy tank, and it can still snapshot pretty well, because the change in bloom is actually very minor. HEAT rounds are already quite broken in the World of Tanks games, they pen everything, fly faster the AP rounds half the time and are basically unrealistic, so that argument is really quite pointless. The M-26 and Cyka pershing have nearly identical turrets (but the Cyka pershing gets extra armor both there and on its hull), but what the Pershing lacks is pen and damage per minute, the Cyka pershing makes up for in higher DPM and Penetration values. The M-26, just like the T-44 loses in a duel with its "upgrade" and loses horribly with against its newest counterpart, the T26E5 Patriot

 

I do understand that the Italian meds are annoying, but with each update, wargaming also adds in tons of other changes too, maybe this could be one of them, along with a Proget nerf and new tanks.



Posit1ve_ #4 Posted 14 November 2019 - 01:52 PM

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All of your complaints seem to stem from one thing: Armor.

 

Armor isn't everything, and it seems that you're judging these tanks based on one scenario: "What would happen if tank X and tank Y stood in front of each other in the open and started blasting?"

 

However, this is far from the only scenario you would encounter in battle, (and is one that you should actively be avoiding in pretty much any tank). In fact, the tanks you've listed as being "better" than the T-44 and M26 (the Mod 1, T-44-100, and T26E4) I'd regard as being solidly worse.

 

Let's start with the T-44. Firstly, compared to the T-44-100, the T-44 is vastly superior. The T-44-100 is literally just the T-44 but substantially slower, and with 2 degrees less gun depression for literally no gain. In case you didn't know, the sideskirts on the 44-100 are a mere 6mm thick, not 75mm. On top of that, the turret of the 44-100 is much fatter than the standard T-44, and thus not only presents a larger target; but is less likely to bounce shells due to insufficient angling when presented head on.

T-44 turret (left)vs. T-44-100 turret(right)


As for the T-44 vs. the Mod 1; while the Mod 1 does have technically better armor, that's it. The T-44 is much, much, faster, has more DPM, more accuracy, and more gun depression. In fact, the Mod 1 gives up so much mobility, that it's no longer really even competing with the T-44; oh no, it's actually at the point where the IS-3 is more comparable in terms of mobility. Medium tanks that trade all of their mobility advantage for armor are not medium tanks. They're really bad heavy tanks.

 

Because of this, the T-44 will do things the Mod 1 simply can't. T-44 can seize key positions first, have the mobility to disengage from a fight, flank/rotate, and even do some early game spotting. Also, the substantially better accuracy/gun handling and gun depression makes the T-44 far more flexible, and able to snap off shots before the enemy can even get their gun trained on you. The mod 1? Good luck trying to keep up. And let's not kid ourselves about Mod 1's armor; it's garbage as well. Most tier 8 heavy tanks will have no issues melting through the turret face and the front hull; which only offer ~200mm of protection, and anything loading gold will simply laugh at you. If you want to pretend to be a heavy tank, you should at least do it well; like the IS-3 or T32, which when hull down are basically invincible.

 

And now onto the M26 Pershing. I might be slightly biased here as the Pershing is one of my favorite tanks in the game, but here we go. I will admit that the Pershing's DPM is on the weaker side for a med, but that's the price it pays for having one of the best turrets on a tier 8 med. But overall, trying to argue that the T26E4 is better is a fool's errand. Once again, like the Mod 1, I'll repeat myself: Meds that trade away all their mobility for armor are just really bad heavy tanks. T26E4 is even slower than the Mod 1, and that means that the IS-3 just outright has a better raw p/w ratio.... by 50%... When heavy tanks are straight up outpacing you, you have a problem. Forget trying to do anything a normal medium can do, ya know, like spotting, taking key positions, or spotting; you'll be lucky to even arrive on time to the fight to even make a difference, when ya know, heavy tanks are outrunning you.

 

On top of that Super Pershing's gun is absolute garbage. You get the low alpha of a medium tank, and the relatively low pen 205 vs. ~220 on most heavies, and you also get the trash gun handling as well at .2/.2, and worst dispersion in class (other than the Chinese meds with their 122s). No snapshot ability here. As for the armor; like the mod 1, it's similarly, still garbage. Once again, most tier 8 heavies will just laugh at the ~200mm protection offered by the front hull, and meds will also laugh at you as they snapshot your huge turret forehead with ease.

 

As for the M26 Pershing itself, it actually has mobility, and the turret lacks the massive forehead weakspot of the T26E4, and coupled with best in class gun handling, the M26 can easily peek a ridgeline, snap off an accurate shot, and duck back into cover before the enemy can even get a shell aimed in. And with the turret armor on the M26, you could probably sit there all day if you wanted. You mentioned the pen being weak, but 180mm is still better than the 175 on the T-44, T-44-100, and Mod 1, which you seemed ok with, so idk man. And also, the Pershing has the strongest gold shell on any tier 8 med or light at 268mm APCR, which will melt through pretty much anything frontally. And on good enough mobility and you've got a tank that can really do it all

Although, I'll take a buff; it is one of my favorite tanks after all


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Theroadrunner36 #5 Posted 15 November 2019 - 06:18 AM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 14 November 2019 - 05:52 AM, said:

All of your complaints seem to stem from one thing: Armor.

 

Armor isn't everything, and it seems that you're judging these tanks based on one scenario: "What would happen if tank X and tank Y stood in front of each other in the open and started blasting?"

 

However, this is far from the only scenario you would encounter in battle, (and is one that you should actively be avoiding in pretty much any tank). In fact, the tanks you've listed as being "better" than the T-44 and M26 (the Mod 1, T-44-100, and T26E4) I'd regard as being solidly worse.

 

Let's start with the T-44. Firstly, compared to the T-44-100, the T-44 is vastly superior. The T-44-100 is literally just the T-44 but substantially slower, and with 2 degrees less gun depression for literally no gain. In case you didn't know, the sideskirts on the 44-100 are a mere 6mm thick, not 75mm. On top of that, the turret of the 44-100 is much fatter than the standard T-44, and thus not only presents a larger target; but is less likely to bounce shells due to insufficient angling when presented head on.

T-44 turret (left)vs. T-44-100 turret(right)


As for the T-44 vs. the Mod 1; while the Mod 1 does have technically better armor, that's it. The T-44 is much, much, faster, has more DPM, more accuracy, and more gun depression. In fact, the Mod 1 gives up so much mobility, that it's no longer really even competing with the T-44; oh no, it's actually at the point where the IS-3 is more comparable in terms of mobility. Medium tanks that trade all of their mobility advantage for armor are not medium tanks. They'rereallybad heavy tanks.

 

Because of this, the T-44 will do things the Mod 1 simply can't. T-44 can seize key positions first, have the mobility to disengage from a fight, flank/rotate, and even do some early game spotting. Also, the substantially better accuracy/gun handling and gun depression makes the T-44 far more flexible, and able to snap off shots before the enemy can even get their gun trained on you. The mod 1? Good luck trying to keep up. And let's not kid ourselves about Mod 1's armor; it's garbage as well. Most tier 8 heavy tanks will have no issues melting through the turret face and the front hull; which only offer ~200mm of protection, and anything loading gold will simply laugh at you. If you want to pretend to be a heavy tank, you should at least do it well; like the IS-3 or T32, which when hull down are basically invincible.

 

And now onto the M26 Pershing. I might be slightly biased here as the Pershing is one of my favorite tanks in the game, but here we go. I will admit that the Pershing's DPM is on the weaker side for a med, but that's the price it pays for having one of the best turrets on a tier 8 med. But overall, trying to argue that the T26E4 is better is a fool's errand. Once again, like the Mod 1, I'll repeat myself: Meds that trade away all their mobility for armor are just really bad heavy tanks. T26E4 is even slower than the Mod 1, and that means that the IS-3 just outright has a better raw p/w ratio.... by 50%... When heavy tanks are straight up outpacing you, you have a problem. Forget trying to do anything a normal medium can do, ya know, like spotting, taking key positions, or spotting; you'll be lucky to even arrive on time to the fight to even make a difference, when ya know, heavy tanks are outrunning you.

 

On top of that Super Pershing's gun is absolute garbage. You get the low alpha of a medium tank, and the relatively low pen 205 vs. ~220 on most heavies, and you also get the trash gun handling as well at .2/.2, and worst dispersion in class (other than the Chinese meds with their 122s). No snapshot ability here. As for the armor; like the mod 1, it's similarly, still garbage. Once again, most tier 8 heavies will just laugh at the ~200mm protection offered by the front hull, and meds will also laugh at you as they snapshot your huge turret forehead with ease.

 

As for the M26 Pershing itself, it actually has mobility, and the turret lacks the massive forehead weakspot of the T26E4, and coupled with best in class gun handling, the M26 can easily peek a ridgeline, snap off an accurate shot, and duck back into cover before the enemy can even get a shell aimed in. And with the turret armor on the M26, you could probably sit there all day if you wanted. You mentioned the pen being weak, but 180mm is still better than the 175 on the T-44, T-44-100, and Mod 1, which you seemed ok with, so idk man. And also, the Pershing has the strongest gold shell on any tier 8 med or light at 268mm APCR, which will melt through pretty much anything frontally. And on good enough mobility and you've got a tank that can really do it all

Although, I'll take a buff; it is one of my favorite tanks after all


Alright thanks for pointing out my incorrect facts, I had no idea these tanks were so much worse in blitz...(I played PC and dear god literally all three of these premium tanks are more op than their tech tree counter parts and while that is still true in blitz not counting the 44-100, its to a far lesser degree)...There are a few things I would like to point out however, the T26E4 is technically a heavy in disguise (kinda like the matilda, which is actually a heavy in blitz, but not in any of the other games), which is why you actually shouldn't play it like a med....at least from my experience. You also seemed to forget the T26E5 Patriot, which is technically a heavy tank, but a copy of the T26E4 nonetheless (which in its self is a modification of the M26). I actually forgot that the T-44 even had bad pen (probably because it is so fun to play), but an armor buff would really help, as it cant hull down consistently, even when top tier. The Pershing also doesn't have the best med pen at tier 8, but if counting only tech tree tanks, then I say you are correct.

I am also confused by what you said about the 54 Mod 1, because it still beats out the T-44 in a one on one engagement, and last I checked they have Identical DPM.

 

Regardless, I really do agree with everything you said. I really hope that these two tanks do get a buff.
 


Edited by Theroadrunner36, 15 November 2019 - 06:19 AM.


Posit1ve_ #6 Posted 15 November 2019 - 08:00 AM

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View PostTheroadrunner36, on 15 November 2019 - 01:18 AM, said:


Alright thanks for pointing out my incorrect facts, I had no idea these tanks were so much worse in blitz...(I played PC and dear god literally all three of these premium tanks are more op than their tech tree counter parts and while that is still true in blitz not counting the 44-100, its to a far lesser degree)...There are a few things I would like to point out however, the T26E4 is technically a heavy in disguise (kinda like the matilda, which is actually a heavy in blitz, but not in any of the other games), which is why you actually shouldn't play it like a med....at least from my experience. You also seemed to forget the T26E5 Patriot, which is technically a heavy tank, but a copy of the T26E4 nonetheless (which in its self is a modification of the M26). I actually forgot that the T-44 even had bad pen (probably because it is so fun to play), but an armor buff would really help, as it cant hull down consistently, even when top tier. The Pershing also doesn't have the best med pen at tier 8, but if counting only tech tree tanks, then I say you are correct.

I am also confused by what you said about the 54 Mod 1, because it still beats out the T-44 in a one on one engagement, and last I checked they have Identical DPM.

 

Regardless, I really do agree with everything you said. I really hope that these two tanks do get a buff.
 

Mod 1 has ~100 less DPM than the T-44 on Blitz, just double checked.

Also, the thing that prevents T26E4 from properly playing like a heavy is that it simply can't compete with heavies. 225 doesn't trade at all effectively against the 400 that many tier 8 heavies are packing, and T26E4 is quite weak in a hulldown postion. Something like an IS-3 or T32 will smack T26E4 silly when it comes to positional play.

 

As for T26E5... Well that thing is pay2win. Not gonna deny that one... Luckily it's pretty rare since it was a lootbox tank.

 

Also, you might be interested in this:

WG on Blitz shows us the data they use for balancing at tiers 8+ every update in these handy dandy graphs, which show the winrate and average damage of different tanks in the hands of 55%-65% players on the CIS server (only tech tree tanks and tanks that make up more than 1% of the tanks played in the tier are displayed)

Tier 8 balance chart for 6.3

According to these, Pershing and T-44 are doing fine, and are both handily beating the T26E4, and T-44 is actually pretty close to Mod1; and there are definitely more pressing balance needs (*ahem* T-34-2, Centurion 1, and Indien Pz *ahem*)

 

It's too bad that not all the premiums are included on these charts, I'd love to see where the real pay2win tanks like the T26E5, 252U, Skorpion G, and WZ-120-1FT fall now. The last balance chart that included the 120-1-FT for instance was way back during update 5.4 (about a year ago), and on it, the WZ had the highest winrate and damage per battle in the tier :sceptic:


Edited by Posit1ve_, 15 November 2019 - 08:00 AM.

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Theroadrunner36 #7 Posted 16 November 2019 - 09:59 PM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 15 November 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

Mod 1 has ~100 less DPM than the T-44 on Blitz, just double checked.

Also, the thing that prevents T26E4 from properly playing like a heavy is that it simply can't compete with heavies. 225 doesn't trade at all effectively against the 400 that many tier 8 heavies are packing, and T26E4 is quite weak in a hulldown postion. Something like an IS-3 or T32 will smack T26E4 silly when it comes to positional play.

 

As for T26E5... Well that thing is pay2win. Not gonna deny that one... Luckily it's pretty rare since it was a lootbox tank.

 

Also, you might be interested in this:

WG on Blitz shows us the data they use for balancing at tiers 8+ every update in these handy dandy graphs, which show the winrate and average damage of different tanks in the hands of 55%-65% players on the CIS server (only tech tree tanks and tanks that make up more than 1% of the tanks played in the tier are displayed)

Tier 8 balance chart for 6.3

According to these, Pershing and T-44 are doing fine, and are both handily beating the T26E4, and T-44 is actually pretty close to Mod1; and there are definitely more pressing balance needs (*ahem* T-34-2, Centurion 1, and Indien Pz *ahem*)

 

It's too bad that not all the premiums are included on these charts, I'd love to see where the real pay2win tanks like the T26E5, 252U, Skorpion G, and WZ-120-1FT fall now. The last balance chart that included the 120-1-FT for instance was way back during update 5.4 (about a year ago), and on it, the WZ had the highest winrate and damage per battle in the tier :sceptic:


Woah, that's really awesome, I had no idea, the devs were actually paying attention to the tech trees. I do now see what you were talking about and as of now a tiger 2 and p44 nerf seem most reasonable, as they would impact the game in the biggest way. I completely forgot how over buffed the tiger 2 was, hopefully they will address that in the next update...still hoping for a better turret and more dpm though, on the T-44 and M-26 respectively.

Wargaming doesn't nerf prems, kinda sucks tbh. In their minds, people will only buy prems if they are powerful (which is actually true) but they are at the same time screwing themselves internationally. Russian players don't care about things like Pay 2 Win, as stated by Quickybaby, and lucky leopard in their vids on pay 2 win tanks a while back. We in the west are the only ones who really care about such things. Most of wargaming's player base and market is in Russia too, so in the end Wargaming wins, everyone else loses. While the devs aren't to blame, and the people who supervise blitz are a bit less money hungry, there is only so much they can do without getting fired by their higher ups, who are probably calling the shots. Its obvious that the devs care about the game but its also obvious that they aren't in full control of it. They get thousands of comments asking them to fix pay 2 win every month, yet they don't seem to do anything about it, almost as if someone else is calling the shots...






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