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The Future of Tournaments

Premiums Tech Tree Ban

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Dark_Magician_Girl #1 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:14 AM

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I've been doing a lot of thinking recently about tournaments.  The twister cup has passed and many clans will be in the winter season and the community produced Clan Wars 6.  To get right to it, I'm going to inject my extremely controversial opinion on what should be done to tournaments in the future to make them better.

 

Premiums tanks should not be allowed in tournaments, at any level.

 

It's kind of past as prologue that I'm preaching this now (you'll see why later).  I thought more tanks = more diversity.  Well, that is only true if tanks are balanced.  Yes, I know there are massive tech tree outliers like the Foch and Progetto, and maybe even the 215b that will most likely receive their divine judgement, but for the most part, tournaments are ruled by premiums.  Additionally, these tanks are reasonably accessible for everyone.  You aren't obligated to open your wallet to purchase the Foch, Progetto, or the 215b.

 

That T-22 made a significant impact, being quite possibly the only medium that can pull off a reverse sidescrape.  You can even watch TJFBleu [RGN] pull off bounces from his butt on a Mayan Ruins game this twister during an impromptu reverse side scrape in a focus fire brawl.  It has classically Russian DPM and -6 degrees of gun depression, like the Obj 140.  It also has a better turret than the 62A, which should not even be a thing.  The mobility is more than good enough to get the job done.  This tank needs a nerf, and shouldn't even be allowed in tournaments in the first place.

 

This brings me to my next point, that only banning one tank is quite unfair.  So in my twisted version of fair, all premiums should be removed from tournament play.

 

If the OP argument doesn't do it for you, consider whats next.  In fact, don't even consider this from an OP tank perspective, but consider this from a role perspective.  For example, we know tanks like the Chieftain, or the AMX 30B, or the 121B are not considered OP by the community.  However, all of them have a role to play in these coordinated team settings, where having the right tool for the job means the difference between winning and losing.  Yes, the T22 can pretty much do it all, but we can all assume there are situations where a Chieftain Mk. 6 would dominate, or an AMX 30B would be much better in a certain spot on a certain map.  Even the 121B's alpha advantage may make some kind of small difference in a tournament strategy.  I'll concede we have yet to see this because of the Swiss Russian army knife known as the T22, but I'm sure we can think of examples where a certain tank on a certain map is clearly the most efficient choice.

 

What if the "most efficient choice" comes at a cost? 25000 gold?  $50?  Maybe try your luck at the crates that just went on sale?  The point I'm trying to make here is that when the "most efficient choice" is not an equally accessible opportunity for everyone it skews the lines that define the term "fair play."  I'm not saying that [RGN] won undeservedly.  No, they definitely proved their hutzpah with some fantastic tactical play this past year.  However, I think it would be more ethical to prevent tanks that do not exist in the tech tree from seeing the light of tournament play.  The lines only get skewed further when the most efficient choice or the right tool for the job, also happens to be the right tool for any job and is downright OP, or noticeably better than the similar tech tree counterparts.

 

To relate, I read an article recently about a new running shoe, known as the "NIKE VAPORFLY."  This running shoe has some pretty fancy tech that absorbs more energy in the sole and gives more propulsion to your next step, creating an almost gliding feeling.  Less energy loss means more energy to the runner, and having a bit more spring in your stride is always lovely.  The article discussed that many previous world records were smashed by runners that wore this shoe.  The sports community is now calling it "tech-doping."  What is actually making these runners win?  Are humans suddenly becoming faster in 2019 in some evolutionary process we are undergoing?  While these runners train tremendously to even compete at this level, evidence suggests that the technology behind these world records may be inflating scores and results.

 

For those of you that don't understand my running analogy but are still into sports, consider the use of corked bats in baseball.  I'm essentially getting at that, except right now in pixel tanks the corked bats aren't considered cheating.

 

And that's just tier 10 folks, what about tier 6 and tier 8?  I personally don't play these tiers often, but I don't need to be a meteorologist to tell that it's raining outside.  Would someone like to argue with me that the most winning teams in tier 8 don't use tanks like the WZ-120-FT, the OBJ 252U, the M41 lekPz, Lowe, T54 mod.1, or other IS clones?  I've played in enough quick tournaments to get the gist of the meta.  It's not around player skill, it's around equipment.  Teams that have no business winning can spam 252U's and smash higher skilled opponents that use tanks like the VK4502A and Caernarvon.  Yes, the Tiger 2 is buffed now, but it's still a relatively odd choice in tournaments because of the fundamentally stronger hull down IS-X style heavies.  Most tier 6 clan wars videos I have watched of teams winning it all are littered with slews of Cromwell B's.  You might see a KV-1S once in a while.  Can someone look me straight in the face and tell me that the tournament meta is not being overrun with spam from premiums? 

 

Premiums, which are not easily accessible to everyone, are starting to pollute a facet of the game whose intention is to find the most skilled teams.  When players can buy something that is the most efficient choice and is also OP, and it is not available for other players to grind (even a long, dedicated grind) to receive that same advantage, it is logically undeniable that the boundaries of fair play are warped.  The search for the "most skilled team" then does not become a contest solely about skill, but also about outside factors.

 

Speaking from experience, I played in CW3, during the updates where mediums were nerfed into the ground, and then premium ammunition was nerfed as well (3.6 and 3.7).  The only tank not affected by these nerfs was the then exclusive M60, which was "randomly" given out.  I put quotations around randomly, as data collected revealed that high spenders received this tank as a "loyal" gift from WG.  Some criteria is still unknown, but correlation illustrates whales and wallet warriors were rewarded for their heavy investments.  Not saying that's bad at all, I like that whales and wallet warriors pay for the game.  With as many premiums as I own, I'm probably a wallet warrior myself.  Thank god I'm not one of those collectors though... ugh, I'd hate to have to purchase every tank that came on sale.

 

Anyways, returning to my story about CW3, some clans had a high propensity of M60's given.  My clan members did not receive any M60's, while other clans in our same group received anywhere from 4-6+ M60's.  The M60, retaining its massive HEAT pen and unnerfed premium alpha, dominated the rest of clan wars.  Clans with members who had it ended up undoubtedly dominating tier 10 clan wars that year.  The other clans didn't really stand a chance.  People who had the tank said it wasn't OP and argued it was no different than the then nerfed M48, but after the M60 was nerfed in line with every other medium, you didn't even see an M60 or an M48.  To this day, I still hold that the original STR8 clan would have been a much different story if it weren't for a fateful day of my team playing nerfed mediums, and our opponents spamming exclusive, overtuned M60's.  You can even watch this on video.  I'll provide the link at the end.  I was basically told to f*ck off and git gud when I complained about this 3-4 years ago, but hindsight is 20/20 as certain now ex-CW council members told me that their decision not to ban the M60 was a mistake.  Guess I was right.

 

If you've read this narrative to the end, I applaud you.  Long story short, exclusive tanks should not be allowed to help define who is the best.  Compound exclusive with overcooked, and we have a serious problem.  I observe that is what is happening now, and as someone who has experienced the short end of the stick regarding losing to teams that had exclusivity and OP on their side, it's not a fun way to play the game.

 

Ban premiums from tournaments to keep the playing field at its most fair.

 

~DMG

 

Spoiler

 


Edited by Dark_Magician_Girl, 19 November 2019 - 01:22 AM.

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_Bulldogge #2 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:26 AM

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Do I agree with you on something?

Witchcraft.

 

Spoiler

 


 

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tankeatingtiger #3 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:31 AM

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View Post_Bulldogge, on 18 November 2019 - 08:26 PM, said:

Do I agree with you on something?

Witchcraft.

 

Spoiler

 

Realistic mode is a step in the right direction. That's the only hope I have for this ever coming to fruition. 
Almost glad I don't play comp because I am far from a collector (especially at high tiers) and would get surely infuriated if I kept getting rofl-stomped by T-22 swarms.


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_Haxxy #4 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:36 AM

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Fishy___ #5 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:47 AM

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There are a lot of things in terms of mechanics that should be changed in tournaments. I do hope that realistic battle's lack of damage roll RNG comes to tournament play at some point.

Big Noob


ironconch25 #6 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:02 AM

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I don’t play tournaments. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Premiums should not be in tournaments, since it should be skill based and team play (tactics & team work). Should only be tech tree tanks that anyone has access to them.

 

From the other point of view, WG benefits from players using Premiums in tournaments. People watching will see how OP these tanks are, and people will want to buy them. Banning Premiums from tournaments doesn’t seem to benefit WG?

 

How can this be made to a win-win for everyone?



Dark_Magician_Girl #7 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:04 AM

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View Postironconch25, on 18 November 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

I don’t play tournaments. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Premiums should not be in tournaments, since it should be skill based and team play (tactics & team work). Should only be tech tree tanks that anyone has access to them.

 

From the other point of view, WG benefits from players using Premiums in tournaments. People watching will see how OP these tanks are, and people will want to buy them. Banning Premiums from tournaments doesn’t seem to benefit WG?

 

How can this be made to a win-win for everyone?

 

People normally don't stream tier 6 and tier 8 tournaments.  I think the benefits of premium tanks really speak for themselves with the additional credits and experience, giving them enough of an advertisement.


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trogvision #8 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:18 AM

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Thank god I don't play tournaments.

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__Frostbite #9 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:21 AM

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TL;DR: I agree with DMG's original post. I also think premium tanks shouldn't be protected from nerfs. Besides that, only relatively small things should also be implemented to tournament play to make it forgivably fair to all people, to the point where people can accept small, imperfect details.

 

OMG NO. I just lost my entire reply because I forgot to load the auto save content. You have to be kidding me. I hope someone quoted that before I saved it.


Edited by __Frostbite, 19 November 2019 - 02:37 AM.

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Killer2T_77 #10 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:43 AM

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Cool and all, but where’s the tier 10 heavies thing for this year?

trogvision #11 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:47 AM

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View Post__Frostbite, on 19 November 2019 - 02:21 AM, said:

TL;DR: I agree with DMG's original post. I also think premium tanks shouldn't be protected from nerfs. Besides that, only relatively small things should also be implemented to tournament play to make it forgivably fair to all people, to the point where people can accept small, imperfect details.

 

OMG NO. I just lost my entire reply because I forgot to load the auto save content. You have to be kidding me. I hope someone quoted that before I saved it.

Shiznugget. I should of quoted your reply before I refreshed the page.


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CK_GoldenNuggets #12 Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:56 AM

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I agree with your theory on accessibility to the right fit for the job.
Any given tank that is the best fit, should be equally accessible to all players who want it for tournament purposes. 
However, I believe theres an alternative that doesn't ban tanks from tournament play.

If we go by the logical argument that all tanks should be accessible to all players.
Can we not also say that to some degree: All tanks are inaccessible.
Any new player that wants to play tournaments could make the argument that they dont have the time to grind out every tier 10 in the game.
Some might respond "You dont need every tier 10, just those that Tourney relevant at the moment"

However, almost all Tier 10s have been tourney relevant at some point or another.
Its not always clear what tanks will come out, how strong they will be, whether some tanks recieving buffs/nerfs will change line ups, etc...

So to some end, we could say people dont have time to grind out all the tier 10s necessary for top level tournament gameplay.
You may not have the credits to purchase 40= tier 10s x 9 million credits a piece (Including equipment, which any good player would use in a tourney match)
Nor do they have the time for 30,000 + battles worth of time to grind up the credits, exp, etc...
Sure, we could say that by default, if you don't have it, then sucks to suck, you cant play. (Which is what we do now, and that works pretty well)
but another road we could take, that would both benefit players in terms of training and completely balance the playing field would be:
Allowing all players who play tourneys to have access to all tanks at tier 10.

This concept would be fairly simple. When you enter a tier 10 tourney, you no longer have access to your garage tanks.
Everything looks the same, but your tank carousel (The filter system) would be gone. 
All you would see is a list of every tier 10 in the game with a little (t) next to it to resemble "Tournament Tank" or something of the kind.
For the duration of the tournament you could play whatever you want to get practice with new tanks and strategies.
This would eliminate an unfair playing field without giving players premiums, it would let people play Premiums and if they like them, they would be more incentivized to buy them...
and it would be a net benefit to tier 10 tourney play as the Winners could truly say they won due to just skill and no "Outside Factors"

It might be a little far fetched but WotPC has a fairly similar concept where they "Rent" Tanks out from time to time where you own a tank for a week or so that you didnt before, for no cost.
My idea would be limited to tourneys of course, but it would be interesting to see.


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__V_O_P__ #13 Posted 19 November 2019 - 03:24 AM

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I think I agree, but the argument above is weak.

Ironconch has the best point - which you didn’t answer because Tier X twister et al is the main WG tourney effort. So Tier X premiums in Tier X tourneys. If you solve that conundrum for WG then you might get some traction. But really removing all of the premiums from their main “shop window” would have too many negative connotations for WG.

You say Tournaments are about finding the most skilled players, I would say that is one purpose of them but not the only one. Marketing (biggest), signature event, team play element, creating an elite culture for players to aspire to...

I was wondering what the % of premium use was in Twister. It didn’t seem ridiculous. And while the T-22 urks me it doesn’t seem to be sufficiently OP to remove every premium from every tournament. Spare my T34 for the love of god.

M60 wasn’t available to people, it wasn’t an issue with cost. You could not buy it at any price. That made the M60 different to the other Tier X premiums at THAT time and not a good argument for banning all premiums. STR8 may have lost out in that instance but that fairly unique set of circumstances (M60 / prammo nerf) does not in of itself warrant banning all premiums now.

The Nike point is wrong. Just wrong, sorry. Nike have created a technically compliant running shoe that gives its wearers a massive advantage. It might get banned, there’s plenty of motorsport precedent when a team creates something legal that gets banned afterwards. The hullabaloo is from non-Nike sponsored athletes that can’t wear the shoe. Are we seriously suggesting elite runners can’t afford $250 pair of shoes that makes THAT much difference? No... they aren’t ALLOWED to wear them because of sponsorship. So it’s a poor analogy.

I am English. I have not idea what a “corked bat” is. Nor why one of the few flying mammals should be brought into a discussion about tanks.

Edited by __V_O_P__, 19 November 2019 - 03:30 AM.


nicog45 #14 Posted 19 November 2019 - 03:36 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 18 November 2019 - 10:24 PM, said:

I think I agree, but the argument above is weak.

Ironconch has the best point - which you didn’t answer because Tier X twister et al is the main WG tourney effort. So Tier X premiums in Tier X tourneys. If you solve that conundrum for WG then you might get some traction. But really removing all of the premiums from their main “shop window” would have too many negative connotations for WG.

You say Tournaments are about finding the most skilled players, I would say that is one purpose of them but not the only one. Marketing (biggest), signature event, team play element, creating an elite culture for players to aspire to...

I was wondering what the % of premium use was in Twister. It didn’t seem ridiculous. And while the T-22 urks me it doesn’t seem to be sufficiently OP to remove every premium from every tournament. Spare my T34 for the love of god.

M60 wasn’t available to people, it wasn’t an issue with cost. You could not buy it at any price. That made the M60 different to the other Tier X premiums at THAT time and not a good argument for banning all premiums. STR8 may have lost out in that instance but that fairly unique set of circumstances (M60 / prammo nerf) does not in of itself warrant banning all premiums now.

The Nike point is wrong. Just wrong, sorry. Nike have created a technically compliant running shoe that gives its wearers a massive advantage. It might get banned, there’s plenty of motorsport precedent when a team creates something legal that gets banned afterwards. The hullabaloo is from non-Nike sponsored athletes that can’t wear the shoe. Are we seriously suggesting elite runners can’t afford $250 pair of shoes that makes THAT much difference? No... they aren’t ALLOWED to wear them because of sponsorship. So it’s a poor analogy.

I am English. I have not idea what a “corked bat” is. Nor why one of the few flying mammals should be brought into a discussion about tanks.


It’s a baseball bat with cork in it. Cork is springy, so you can hit the ball farther. Think a cricket bat that hits farther than a normal one.

Also, I agree with DMG on banning tier 10 premium/collector tanks in tournaments, but I think it’s fine to leave them at tier 6 and 8 since those tiers don’t really get big tournaments like twister.


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__V_O_P__ #15 Posted 19 November 2019 - 03:47 AM

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View Postnicog45, on 19 November 2019 - 03:36 AM, said:


It’s a baseball bat with cork in it. Cork is springy, so you can hit the ball farther. Think a cricket bat that hits farther than a normal one.

Also, I agree with DMG on banning tier 10 premium/collector tanks in tournaments, but I think it’s fine to leave them at tier 6 and 8 since those tiers don’t really get big tournaments like twister.


All of those points and you commented on that one... 
 

DMG’s post was a justification of his point. Could you at least offer some logic that justifies “banning premiums from tournaments but oh wait not from Tier 6 and 8 tournaments” ?



nicog45 #16 Posted 19 November 2019 - 03:50 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 18 November 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:


All of those points and you commented on that one... 
 

DMG’s post was a justification of his point. Could you at least offer some logic that justifies “banning premiums from tournaments but oh wait not from Tier 6 and 8 tournaments” ?


Keep letting the masses play their tier 6-8 premiums they spent money one, but make tier 10 a level playing field since it’s where the most is on the line.


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Absolute_Sniper #17 Posted 19 November 2019 - 03:55 AM

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What if only during tourneys, every player had access to every tank. This would bolster the participation in quick tourneys by a fair margin and add a different layer. Would people with no business playing in tier X tourneys show up and get steamrolled? Sure but that happens anyways. It would level the playing field and provide a benefit to WG. If some drove say a T-22 in a tourney and dominated, then lost access to it for all other games modes because they don’t own the tank, they would be much more likely to open up their wallets and try to buy one.

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tankeatingtiger #18 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:02 AM

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View PostAbsolute_Sniper, on 18 November 2019 - 10:55 PM, said:

What if only during tourneys, every player had access to every tank. This would bolster the participation in quick tourneys by a fair margin and add a different layer. Would people with no business playing in tier X tourneys show up and get steamrolled? Sure but that happens anyways. It would level the playing field and provide a benefit to WG. If some drove say a T-22 in a tourney and dominated, then lost access to it for all other games modes because they don’t own the tank, they would be much more likely to open up their wallets and try to buy one.

I would only like this in quick tourneys (not sure if they really matter for anything) or make a tourney category for this. It is a good idea, both for piquing the playerbase's interest and to give another marketing angle. I'm sure DMG among others would not like to see this in, say, CW6.


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Dark_Magician_Girl #19 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:33 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 18 November 2019 - 10:24 PM, said:

The Nike point is wrong. Just wrong, sorry. Nike have created a technically compliant running shoe that gives its wearers a massive advantage. It might get banned, there’s plenty of motorsport precedent when a team creates something legal that gets banned afterwards. The hullabaloo is from non-Nike sponsored athletes that can’t wear the shoe. Are we seriously suggesting elite runners can’t afford $250 pair of shoes that makes THAT much difference? No... they aren’t ALLOWED to wear them because of sponsorship. So it’s a poor analogy.

 

I think it is a perfectly fine example as it shows the differences in achievement level when you have access to certain advantages that other competitors do not.  Of course these runners can most likely afford these shoes, but their sponsors create circumstances that do not allow them to have the same advantages.

 

Additionally, there are other advantages to tournaments, but the ones you listed are mostly looking at it through a business lens.  I'm talking from a player perspective.  Lastly, the M60 was the only tier X premium at the time and while there was no set monetary price, it was very clear that people with larger spending budgets got the tank.


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__V_O_P__ #20 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:34 AM

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View PostAbsolute_Sniper, on 19 November 2019 - 03:55 AM, said:

What if only during tourneys, every player had access to every tank. This would bolster the participation in quick tourneys by a fair margin and add a different layer. Would people with no business playing in tier X tourneys show up and get steamrolled? Sure but that happens anyways. It would level the playing field and provide a benefit to WG. If some drove say a T-22 in a tourney and dominated, then lost access to it for all other games modes because they don’t own the tank, they would be much more likely to open up their wallets and try to buy one.


^ this. But maybe limit the number of times you can play  tanks you don’t own - with season coins or some craziness.
 

Perhaps give regular owners unlimited use? 







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