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The Future of Tournaments

Premiums Tech Tree Ban

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__V_O_P__ #21 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:51 AM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 19 November 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

 

I think it is a perfectly fine example as it shows the differences in achievement level when you have access to certain advantages that other competitors do not.  Of course these runners can most likely afford these shoes, but their sponsors create circumstances that do not allow them to have the same advantages.

 

Additionally, there are other advantages to tournaments, but the ones you listed are mostly looking at it through a business lens.  I'm talking from a player perspective.  Lastly, the M60 was the only tier X premium at the time and while there was no set monetary price, it was very clear that people with larger spending budgets got the tank.


You think it’s a good example because putting it like that supports your point. Suggesting that Nike has created a premium tank model with its shoes is fanciful - the shoes are neither rare nor sufficiently expensive. Professional runners are electing not to use because it would otherwise void their lucrative sponsorship deals. That’s their choice and the shoes are not denied to them so it is not really a good analogy. A better example would be if STR8 were sponsored by USAA and as a result played only in US nation tanks. (No wait...some clan threatened to that already...and see what happened to them.. #newblitzorder)

 

Similarly ignoring WG business needs means you are missing the main point of premium tanks, which would seem relevant to a debate about premium tanks. Taking a player perspective is fine, but if you want to make a positive change in WG behavior, surely you’ll have to figure that out.
 

Or one could start their own CW-equivalent effort and make up whatever restrictions one wanted. 
 

So your concern is valid, I just don’t see that it justifies a wholesale removal of all premiums from all tournaments. Frankly a better solution would be no OP premiums, but that horse bolted. 


Edited by __V_O_P__, 19 November 2019 - 04:55 AM.


rosgrim #22 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:53 AM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 19 November 2019 - 01:14 AM, said:

I've been doing a lot of thinking recently about tournaments.  The twister cup has passed and many clans will be in the winter season and the community produced Clan Wars 6.  To get right to it, I'm going to inject my extremely controversial opinion on what should be done to tournaments in the future to make them better.

 

Premiums tanks should not be allowed in tournaments, at any level.

 

It's kind of past as prologue that I'm preaching this now (you'll see why later).  I thought more tanks = more diversity.  Well, that is only true if tanks are balanced.  Yes, I know there are massive tech tree outliers like the Foch and Progetto, and maybe even the 215b that will most likely receive their divine judgement, but for the most part, tournaments are ruled by premiums.  Additionally, these tanks are reasonably accessible for everyone.  You aren't obligated to open your wallet to purchase the Foch, Progetto, or the 215b.

 

That T-22 made a significant impact, being quite possibly the only medium that can pull off a reverse sidescrape.  You can even watch TJFBleu [RGN] pull off bounces from his butt on a Mayan Ruins game this twister during an impromptu reverse side scrape in a focus fire brawl.  It has classically Russian DPM and -6 degrees of gun depression, like the Obj 140.  It also has a better turret than the 62A, which should not even be a thing.  The mobility is more than good enough to get the job done.  This tank needs a nerf, and shouldn't even be allowed in tournaments in the first place.

 

This brings me to my next point, that only banning one tank is quite unfair.  So in my twisted version of fair, all premiums should be removed from tournament play.

 

If the OP argument doesn't do it for you, consider whats next.  In fact, don't even consider this from an OP tank perspective, but consider this from a role perspective.  For example, we know tanks like the Chieftain, or the AMX 30B, or the 121B are not considered OP by the community.  However, all of them have a role to play in these coordinated team settings, where having the right tool for the job means the difference between winning and losing.  Yes, the T22 can pretty much do it all, but we can all assume there are situations where a Chieftain Mk. 6 would dominate, or an AMX 30B would be much better in a certain spot on a certain map.  Even the 121B's alpha advantage may make some kind of small difference in a tournament strategy.  I'll concede we have yet to see this because of the Swiss Russian army knife known as the T22, but I'm sure we can think of examples where a certain tank on a certain map is clearly the most efficient choice.

 

What if the "most efficient choice" comes at a cost? 25000 gold?  $50?  Maybe try your luck at the crates that just went on sale?  The point I'm trying to make here is that when the "most efficient choice" is not an equally accessible opportunity for everyone it skews the lines that define the term "fair play."  I'm not saying that [RGN] won undeservedly.  No, they definitely proved their hutzpah with some fantastic tactical play this past year.  However, I think it would be more ethical to prevent tanks that do not exist in the tech tree from seeing the light of tournament play.  The lines only get skewed further when the most efficient choice or the right tool for the job, also happens to be the right tool for any job and is downright OP, or noticeably better than the similar tech tree counterparts.

 

To relate, I read an article recently about a new running shoe, known as the "NIKE VAPORFLY."  This running shoe has some pretty fancy tech that absorbs more energy in the sole and gives more propulsion to your next step, creating an almost gliding feeling.  Less energy loss means more energy to the runner, and having a bit more spring in your stride is always lovely.  The article discussed that many previous world records were smashed by runners that wore this shoe.  The sports community is now calling it "tech-doping."  What is actually making these runners win?  Are humans suddenly becoming faster in 2019 in some evolutionary process we are undergoing?  While these runners train tremendously to even compete at this level, evidence suggests that the technology behind these world records may be inflating scores and results.

 

For those of you that don't understand my running analogy but are still into sports, consider the use of corked bats in baseball.  I'm essentially getting at that, except right now in pixel tanks the corked bats aren't considered cheating.

 

And that's just tier 10 folks, what about tier 6 and tier 8?  I personally don't play these tiers often, but I don't need to be a meteorologist to tell that it's raining outside.  Would someone like to argue with me that the most winning teams in tier 8 don't use tanks like the WZ-120-FT, the OBJ 252U, the M41 lekPz, Lowe, T54 mod.1, or other IS clones?  I've played in enough quick tournaments to get the gist of the meta.  It's not around player skill, it's around equipment.  Teams that have no business winning can spam 252U's and smash higher skilled opponents that use tanks like the VK4502A and Caernarvon.  Yes, the Tiger 2 is buffed now, but it's still a relatively odd choice in tournaments because of the fundamentally stronger hull down IS-X style heavies.  Most tier 6 clan wars videos I have watched of teams winning it all are littered with slews of Cromwell B's.  You might see a KV-1S once in a while.  Can someone look me straight in the face and tell me that the tournament meta is not being overrun with spam from premiums? 

 

Premiums, which are not easily accessible to everyone, are starting to pollute a facet of the game whose intention is to find the most skilled teams.  When players can buy something that is the most efficient choice and is also OP, and it is not available for other players to grind (even a long, dedicated grind) to receive that same advantage, it is logically undeniable that the boundaries of fair play are warped.  The search for the "most skilled team" then does not become a contest solely about skill, but also about outside factors.

 

Speaking from experience, I played in CW3, during the updates where mediums were nerfed into the ground, and then premium ammunition was nerfed as well (3.6 and 3.7).  The only tank not affected by these nerfs was the then exclusive M60, which was "randomly" given out.  I put quotations around randomly, as data collected revealed that high spenders received this tank as a "loyal" gift from WG.  Some criteria is still unknown, but correlation illustrates whales and wallet warriors were rewarded for their heavy investments.  Not saying that's bad at all, I like that whales and wallet warriors pay for the game.  With as many premiums as I own, I'm probably a wallet warrior myself.  Thank god I'm not one of those collectors though... ugh, I'd hate to have to purchase every tank that came on sale.

 

Anyways, returning to my story about CW3, some clans had a high propensity of M60's given.  My clan members did not receive any M60's, while other clans in our same group received anywhere from 4-6+ M60's.  The M60, retaining its massive HEAT pen and unnerfed premium alpha, dominated the rest of clan wars.  Clans with members who had it ended up undoubtedly dominating tier 10 clan wars that year.  The other clans didn't really stand a chance.  People who had the tank said it wasn't OP and argued it was no different than the then nerfed M48, but after the M60 was nerfed in line with every other medium, you didn't even see an M60 or an M48.  To this day, I still hold that the original STR8 clan would have been a much different story if it weren't for a fateful day of my team playing nerfed mediums, and our opponents spamming exclusive, overtuned M60's.  You can even watch this on video.  I'll provide the link at the end.  I was basically told to f*ck off and git gud when I complained about this 3-4 years ago, but hindsight is 20/20 as certain now ex-CW council members told me that their decision not to ban the M60 was a mistake.  Guess I was right.

 

If you've read this narrative to the end, I applaud you.  Long story short, exclusive tanks should not be allowed to help define who is the best.  Compound exclusive with overcooked, and we have a serious problem.  I observe that is what is happening now, and as someone who has experienced the short end of the stick regarding losing to teams that had exclusivity and OP on their side, it's not a fun way to play the game.

 

Ban premiums from tournaments to keep the playing field at its most fair.

 

~DMG

 

Spoiler

 


I would say this is true in general (obviously is most relevant in tournament because we are talking about a "real" competition and people spend time to train, make strategy etc).

I don't mind (and I think everyone shouldn't) to have some OP tank from the tech tree. 

On contrary I like that.

Why ?

1. Because otherwise we will get the same WOTB did with lower tiers or with some tanks now pretty much confined in the oblivion (Grille ?).

2. Everyone can get that "OP" tech tree tank. With the credit mechanics now you can buy any tier tank just putting a little effort to grind silvers.

 

Unless we talk about some really broken (to be clear like the Ke Ni otsu that by the way is still a premium).

WZ-120-FT, the OBJ 252U ? the problem is that those are expensive or even crazy expensive or may be impossible -  depending on how luck one is - to get (crates system).

And I agree premium should be premium in terms of credits and exp. earned. that's it.

 

​But honestly I think WOTB won't change the premium tank sales strategy. Every muppet wanna spend money to get a OP tank hoping that will make him a good player.

 

 


Edited by rosgrim, 19 November 2019 - 05:55 AM.


_18NakedCowboys #23 Posted 19 November 2019 - 07:21 AM

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I agree that premium tanks and collector tanks should not be allowed in Tournaments/Twister Cup/Clan Wars.

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____Zer0____ #24 Posted 19 November 2019 - 12:44 PM

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Enough with arguing over whether you agree with DMGs example.   It’s arbitrary to the point he’s making.   You can plug in any numbers of examples to support his argument.    But, removing anything that makes a business money will never happen.   If Clans win with certain tanks. That creates interest in certain tanks because let’s be honest. Not all premiums are created equal.  WG will never remove an “advertisement” for their money making products. It just won’t happen.  Ever... The only solution that would even be considered is absolutesnipers post.  Giving everyone the opportunity to play tanks in a particular environment might equal the odds and stimulate sales.   “Stimulate sales” being the important one to WG.   Just remember that famous quote.  “All (tanks) is fair in love and war”.  And this is Wargaming...

Edited by ____Zer0____, 19 November 2019 - 12:55 PM.


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j_rod #25 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:28 PM

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View Post____Zer0____, on 19 November 2019 - 06:44 AM, said:

Enough with arguing over whether you agree with DMGs example.   It’s arbitrary to the point he’s making.   You can plug in any numbers of examples to support his argument.    But, removing anything that makes a business money will never happen.   If Clans win with certain tanks. That creates interest in certain tanks because let’s be honest. Not all premiums are created equal.  WG will never remove an “advertisement” for their money making products. It just won’t happen.  Ever... The only solution that would even be considered is absolutesnipers post.  Giving everyone the opportunity to play tanks in a particular environment might equal the odds and stimulate sales.   “Stimulate sales” being the important one to WG.   Just remember that famous quote.  “All (tanks) is fair in love and war”.  And this is Wargaming...


This. While DMG is 100% correct that it isn’t completely fair to allow premium tanks, the reality is that nothing in life is, even sporting events. The swimmer with the newest suit, the bobsledder with the latest tech, and even the basketball player that has access to the best training program all have advantages over the next guy. As humans, we’ve largely determined that’s its wrong to prevent access to these things in order to allow for the perception of fairness, but the reality is that $$ gives an advantage and that’s just life. 

 

Again, the idea itself has merit except that it runs contrary to the fact that WG is a business and the only way they’d consider limiting revenue is if they saw some other long-term benefits. If someone can suggest how they’d make up the marketing and thus the revenue that comes with having premium tanks in tourneys, I’d be curious to hear it.


Edited by j_rod, 19 November 2019 - 01:29 PM.

Working as intended
 

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j_rod #26 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:35 PM

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On a separate note - given the popularity of esports these days and the amount of viewership that goes along with it, why aren’t the top clans looking for sponsors? If there are players that can’t access tanks that they need bc of a lack of financial resources, why can’t those clans look for sponsorships for the top tournaments to help pay for the tools they need?

Admittedly, it would require some stability within the clans, but the opportunity is there.

Working as intended
 

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RonaldusMaximus_ #27 Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:52 PM

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I just wish they would streamline the process for creating teams and joining the tournaments. Its very confusing for those of us who have never played a tourney. Too many menus to jump through, and when you think you have been defeated half your team logs out only to realize there's another match to play. Very frustrating.

 


__V_O_P__ #28 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:47 PM

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View PostRonaldusMaximus_, on 19 November 2019 - 01:52 PM, said:

I just wish they would streamline the process for creating teams and joining the tournaments. Its very confusing for those of us who have never played a tourney. Too many menus to jump through, and when you think you have been defeated half your team logs out only to realize there's another match to play. Very frustrating.


Consider starting a new thread rather than derailing this one?



__V_O_P__ #29 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:52 PM

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View Post_ArmoredGlassCannon, on 19 November 2019 - 07:21 AM, said:

I agree that premium tanks and collector tanks should not be allowed in Tournaments/Twister Cup/Clan Wars.


Clan wars is irrelevant. Those guys can specify whatever they want, surely? 

 

And is this for Tier X or all tournaments?

 

it still seems to me to be a lot of collateral damage with all sorts of tanks (IS5/6, T34) excluded, which really are not OP, to deal with the few that are. 
 

Plus point about WG... obvs. 



Dark_Magician_Girl #30 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:06 PM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 19 November 2019 - 11:52 AM, said:


Clan wars is irrelevant. Those guys can specify whatever they want, surely? 

 

And is this for Tier X or all tournaments?

 

it still seems to me to be a lot of collateral damage with all sorts of tanks (IS5/6, T34) excluded, which really are not OP, to deal with the few that are. 
 

Plus point about WG... obvs. 

 

The T34 is still more powerful than the tech tree counterpart.  


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__V_O_P__ #31 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:13 PM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 19 November 2019 - 05:06 PM, said:

 

The T34 is still more powerful than the tech tree counterpart.  


it’s literally the only T8 tank I’m good in. Sigh. So many strats straight into the toilet. 



SillySkipperLilly #32 Posted 20 November 2019 - 03:12 AM

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the way I see it, the same problem exists in ratings. I play almost exclusively tier 8 when im in ratings (because I love my type 59 with a passion, but I got that tank only a few months ago and long gone are its days of being OP) and I see so much spam of the WZ-120 FT and Obj 252 and other popular suspects. of course, ratings still has the same randomness in the teams to it as a random battle, so it doesnt always have the same effect as it would in ompetitive play. However, it is still the same concept, and I would even give up playing my beloved Type 59 in ratings to see a similar change to what you have proposed in tournaments.

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Chiefmac #33 Posted 20 November 2019 - 10:33 AM

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I’m just a below average, old retired guy that loves playing Blitz. I enjoyed the Twister Cup Streams a lot but it struck a chord with me watching the T-22 spamming and I totally agree that official WG events/tournament play should be limited to TT tanks, like NASCAR. EVERYONE competes with the same standards/limitations etc. Thanks for the thoughtful post DMG. 

dport02 #34 Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:56 PM

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I have to agree DMG. I’ve played many tier 8 tournaments, and let me tell you, premium is EVERYWHERE! I’ve been in a few battles where it’s all premium tanks and no tech tree. Kinda sad, but I play my premiums a lot
RNG is rigged !

BAR_001 #35 Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:00 PM

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 And what if ALL premiums were made available by participating in events at some point in time?

Edited by BAR_001, 20 November 2019 - 02:00 PM.

RNG doesn't bother hackers.

Godzillacus #36 Posted 20 November 2019 - 04:34 PM

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I have long wanted (and stated here in forum) to have at least some tournaments to be tech tree only. I think it would be fun and interesting to see the results. My suggestion was to make one of the weekly quick tournaments tech tree only and see what happens. From there you could see what happened and decided what to do with the bigger tournaments.

 

As far as do the premiums always dominate in lower tier tournaments? No they do not. We are playing almost all teir 6 tournaments right now (lots of new players) and our personal experience in the last tournament was winning out in both tournaments we entered. Went 9-2 in the first and 8-0 in the second. Our basic lineup was 4 ARL 44, 1 SU100, 1 Cromwell B and 1 VK 28.01 (me). We sometimes went with 1 less ARL or the Cromwell and went with an additional TD. Far from Premiums dominating, and the 2 games we lost were not to premium OP but to just a good clan (Cru2l). They had a couple of Crom B but a mixture of other tanks. So it can be done at least at that level without Premium tanks.

 

Would still like to see Tech Tree only at least at tier 6 and 8 to just see what happens.


Edited by Godzillacus, 20 November 2019 - 04:35 PM.


Anonomous_stern #37 Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:15 AM

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This topic really needs to be put forward to WG. Majority of the successful E-Sports games have accessible items that don't require spending to get an edge. They usually have skins etc. to account for the lack of consumer spending. However since Prems have already been put into all tiers of the game the most reasonable thing to do is exclude them from tournaments. I'm sure a lot of us think twice about joining in tournaments knowing that prems can have a edge in the games. All the countless hours spent on hard work in training formations counters etc. can be thought of being wasted because of these unbalanced tanks in game. I personally would rather move on and actually play a game that is balanced. A game that has a pro tournament scene that actually tests the teams tactical and individual ability rather than waste my time training with my clan to play a game that is basically unfair and has a unseen paywall of gambling on crates to get the edge etc.

_Crusader6_ #38 Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:34 AM

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T-22 isn’t nearly as OP as many here (cough DMG cough) seem to suggest. 
 

There are some massive weak spots as the V Hull isn’t a true V Hull.  It also has worse DPM than the other Russians, and the same pen as the Obj 140, ( less than the 62 )     
 

Many folks complained about the Mk6 and the M60 before as well as the Badger. 
  WG is not going to ban Premium/Enriched/Collector tanks from tournaments, so if you feel it’s OP, go buy it.  

  


 

 
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Dark_Magician_Girl #39 Posted 21 November 2019 - 01:05 PM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 21 November 2019 - 12:34 AM, said:

T-22 isn’t nearly as OP as many here (cough DMG cough) seem to suggest. 
 

There are some massive weak spots as the V Hull isn’t a true V Hull.  It also has worse DPM than the other Russians, and the same pen as the Obj 140, ( less than the 62 )     
 

Many folks complained about the Mk6 and the M60 before as well as the Badger. 
  WG is not going to ban Premium/Enriched/Collector tanks from tournaments, so if you feel it’s OP, go buy it.  

  

 

No, it is definitely OP and you'd be silly to think otherwise.  Players who have t-22 are driving it for a reason in tournaments instead of the 140 or the 62.

 

Telling someone to go buy the advantage to even the playing field doesn't solve the problem at all. It only incentivizes WG to sell more tanks that powercreep the most recent standard of OP.

 

Moreover, unlike your specific experience, the majority of players do not spend nearly as much as you do, given your previous admissions of spending upwards of $3000.00 on this game.   I believe the figure you gave was higher than this.


Edited by Dark_Magician_Girl, 21 November 2019 - 01:07 PM.

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ZebraUp #40 Posted 21 November 2019 - 02:35 PM

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I think that for the top echelon tournament, the Twister Cup, (along with the qualifiers to get to it) should be tech tree only tanks.

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