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Premiums Tech Tree Ban

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__V_O_P__ #41 Posted 21 November 2019 - 02:49 PM

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View PostZebraUp, on 21 November 2019 - 02:35 PM, said:

I think that for the top echelon tournament, the Twister Cup, (along with the qualifiers to get to it) should be tech tree only tanks.


And I still haven’t seen a logical reason why all non-tech tree tanks should be banned because a few are OP. Nor an explanation as to why WG would be incentivized to do so. 



__Crusader6__ #42 Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:06 PM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 21 November 2019 - 08:05 AM, said:

 

No, it is definitely OP and you'd be silly to think otherwise.  Players who have t-22 are driving it for a reason in tournaments instead of the 140 or the 62.

 

Telling someone to go buy the advantage to even the playing field doesn't solve the problem at all. It only incentivizes WG to sell more tanks that powercreep the most recent standard of OP.

 

Moreover, unlike your specific experience, the majority of players do not spend nearly as much as you do, given your previous admissions of spending upwards of $3000.00 on this game.   I believe the figure you gave was higher than this.


Much higher than 3k.  But not the point.  The BC is also driven in tournaments, does that make it OP? 
 

Many tanks that can rotfstomp in pub matches aren’t ideal for tournaments.  The same can go the opposite way - as with a coordinated team you can play to your tanks strengths and initially minimize the weaknesses via your teammates.   
 

Do I think the T-22 is over cooked, a bit, but I would rather bring up a few other meds to it and the E50M level (there is an overcooked med - but it doesn’t see a lot of tournament play, as overall it’s weaknesses generally outweigh its advantages for high level play. 
 

The key aspect is WG won’t restrict premiums from tournaments- as it’s a marketing method to sell very expensive premiums.  
 


 


 
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Defaultz #43 Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:36 PM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 21 November 2019 - 05:06 PM, said

The key aspect is WG won’t restrict premiums from tournaments- as it’s a marketing method to sell very expensive premiums.  
 


 

 

This is what we are trying to change. 

 

I'm not so concerned  with how lethal the t22 is, as much as I despise how random it is fighting one. You can aim perfectly between the spaced armor, but your shot may still go somewhere else and damage a track for nothing. Also the completely 100% impenetrable turret is a joke. Tanks like these just flat out expose how little skilled plays matter and how much battles just come down dumb luck and pen/damage rolls.



__Crusader6__ #44 Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:57 PM

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View PostDefaultz, on 21 November 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

 

This is what we are trying to change. 

 

I'm not so concerned  with how lethal the t22 is, as much as I despise how random it is fighting one. You can aim perfectly between the spaced armor, but your shot may still go somewhere else and damage a track for nothing. Also the completely 100% impenetrable turret is a joke. Tanks like these just flat out expose how little skilled plays matter and how much battles just come down dumb luck and pen/damage rolls.


Better method would be the open tank choice for tournaments then.  
   You’d find more support from WG there.  
 

Right now you aren’t offering WG anything that benefits them, as limiting Premiums from Tournaments isn’t going to fly. 


Turret isn’t impenetrable though.   Roof is 71mm, I’ve eaten enough HE to the roof to tell you it hurts.  

    Defaultz, I’m pretty sure you clobbered me with HE/HESH on my roof several months ago when I was hulldown across the river on Port Bay - I thought I was rock solid - and got absolutely rocked through my roof when (I watched the replay - and that was eye opening as to the roof issue). 


It’s troll, and I agree it’s a tough cookie if it’s well positioned or moving erratically - 

 

To change WG’s mind you need to find a win for them - right now it’s a loss. 

 


 
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Dark_Magician_Girl #45 Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:05 PM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 21 November 2019 - 09:49 AM, said:


And I still haven’t seen a logical reason why all non-tech tree tanks should be banned because a few are OP. Nor an explanation as to why WG would be incentivized to do so. 

 

For the last time, this is from a player lens not a business lens.  I couldn't care if WG is incentivized to do so, that's not even the point of the original post.  Moreover, not only because a few of them are OP, but because all tanks (including premiums) fill specific niche roles on the field;  tech tree tanks cannot fill these roles as well as the premiums, creating exclusive accessibility to some players to have the right tank for the right job.  All premiums should be banned from competition.  What happens when WG decides to buff the the exclusive tanks they consider average?  Is everyone just going to run and buy that one?  Excluding them all solves any future problems of this happening.  

 

 


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Dark_Magician_Girl #46 Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:16 PM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 21 November 2019 - 12:06 PM, said:


Much higher than 3k.  But not the point.  The BC is also driven in tournaments, does that make it OP? 
 

Many tanks that can rotfstomp in pub matches aren’t ideal for tournaments.  The same can go the opposite way - as with a coordinated team you can play to your tanks strengths and initially minimize the weaknesses via your teammates.   
 

Do I think the T-22 is over cooked, a bit, but I would rather bring up a few other meds to it and the E50M level (there is an overcooked med - but it doesn’t see a lot of tournament play, as overall it’s weaknesses generally outweigh its advantages for high level play. 
 

The key aspect is WG won’t restrict premiums from tournaments- as it’s a marketing method to sell very expensive premiums.  
 


 

 

If you would have read my post I'm talking about tanks that are NOT available to everyone.  Additionally, tournament players gravitate towards the strongest vehicles. Your argument that it "can go the opposite way"  is misleading because every tank in twisters 1-4 can roflstomp in pubs.  Every square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares.

 

You're looking way too much from a WG perspective.  How does this benefit WG?  Who cares?  Are you WG? I really couldn't care.  WG has their reasons, and have done seriously dumb sh!t in the past.  Some pencil pusher in the marketing department thought spare parts was going to be a good way to make money.  Just because whatever system or mechanic strongly incentivizes spending doesn't mean it is healthy for gameplay.  Healthy for WG?  Yes.  Healthy for gameplay?  Not necessarily.


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__Crusader6__ #47 Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:31 PM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 21 November 2019 - 06:16 PM, said:

 

If you would have read my post I'm talking about tanks that are NOT available to everyone.  Additionally, tournament players gravitate towards the strongest vehicles. Your argument that it "can go the opposite way"  is misleading because every tank in twisters 1-4 can roflstomp in pubs.  Every square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares.

 

You're looking way too much from a WG perspective.  How does this benefit WG?  Who cares?  Are you WG? I really couldn't care.  WG has their reasons, and have done seriously dumb sh!t in the past.  Some pencil pusher in the marketing department thought spare parts was going to be a good way to make money.  Just because whatever system or mechanic strongly incentivizes spending doesn't mean it is healthy for gameplay.  Healthy for WG?  Yes.  Healthy for gameplay?  Not necessarily.


I’m suggesting you look at it from the WG perspective.   Writing an argument here does nothing unless you can show a value add to WG.   The counter argument is the T-22 is available to anyone, IF you fork out cash.  

 

I am trying to help you craft a winnable argument to WG, right now you don’t. 


 


 
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Absolute_Sniper #48 Posted 22 November 2019 - 12:37 AM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 21 November 2019 - 11:16 PM, said:

 

If you would have read my post I'm talking about tanks that are NOT available to everyone.  Additionally, tournament players gravitate towards the strongest vehicles. Your argument that it "can go the opposite way"  is misleading because every tank in twisters 1-4 can roflstomp in pubs.  Every square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares.

 

You're looking way too much from a WG perspective.  How does this benefit WG?  Who cares?  Are you WG? I really couldn't care.  WG has their reasons, and have done seriously dumb sh!t in the past.  Some pencil pusher in the marketing department thought spare parts was going to be a good way to make money.  Just because whatever system or mechanic strongly incentivizes spending doesn't mean it is healthy for gameplay.  Healthy for WG?  Yes.  Healthy for gameplay?  Not necessarily.

Would you be alright if everyone had access to every tank during tourneys? That aspect would fix the limiting factor of OP crate tanks and premiums and give each tourney team a level playing field. At that same time it would benefit WG from a sales perspective. If you played an OP premium during tourneys, you’d be much more likely to buy it the next time it came out because you’d already know it was OP. 


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Dark_Magician_Girl #49 Posted 22 November 2019 - 12:38 AM

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View PostAbsolute_Sniper, on 21 November 2019 - 07:37 PM, said:

Would you be alright if everyone had access to every tank during tourneys? That aspect would fix the limiting factor of OP crate tanks and premiums and give each tourney team a level playing field. At that same time it would benefit WG from a sales perspective. If you played an OP premium during tourneys, you’d be much more likely to buy it the next time it came out because you’d already know it was OP. 

 

It's a start.  


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j_rod #50 Posted 22 November 2019 - 12:58 AM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 21 November 2019 - 06:38 PM, said:

 

It's a start.  


That’s the pitch. By advertising the effectiveness of (insert premium tank here) it will drive more sales of the tank.

 

The number of players involved in tourneys is a fraction of the player base, but it is an opportunity for WG to advertise bc they give it so much visibility. Rather than try to attempt them to limit advertising by suggesting only tech tree tanks, I agree with the others that it makes more sense to push for access to all the tanks.

 

Be the guy wearing the latest Nike shoes...except it’s a T22 and not Jordans.


 

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Dark_Magician_Girl #51 Posted 22 November 2019 - 01:06 AM

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View Postj_rod, on 21 November 2019 - 07:58 PM, said:


That’s the pitch. By advertising the effectiveness of (insert premium tank here) it will drive more sales of the tank.

 

The number of players involved in tourneys is a fraction of the player base, but it is an opportunity for WG to advertise bc they give it so much visibility. Rather than try to attempt them to limit advertising by suggesting only tech tree tanks, I agree with the others that it makes more sense to push for access to all the tanks.

 

Be the guy wearing the latest Nike shoes...except it’s a T22 and not Jordans.

 

The problem then becomes WG buffing premiums because they know they will sell due to tournament visibility.  That destroys public gameplay in a violent way.  There is a lot of grey area giving everyone access to everything.  Cutting it off at the bud and saying they are no longer allowed is a much cleaner solution that prevents and future destructiveness from exclusive tanks.

 

No it's not the "best" marketing decision.  However, I don't think a lot of players watch the twister, or frankly care about tournaments.  I have no idea what figure WG makes off of tournament advertising, but I don't think it matches the sales they make year-round from content creators like Bushka or Meadsy doing videos.  I value gameplay over greed.  As players, I think most of you would agree.


Edited by Dark_Magician_Girl, 22 November 2019 - 01:09 AM.

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j_rod #52 Posted 22 November 2019 - 01:25 AM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 21 November 2019 - 07:06 PM, said:

 

The problem then becomes WG buffing premiums because they know they will sell due to tournament visibility.  That destroys public gameplay in a violent way.  There is a lot of grey area giving everyone access to everything.  Cutting it off at the bud and saying they are no longer allowed is a much cleaner solution that prevents and future destructiveness from exclusive tanks.

 

No it's not the "best" marketing decision.  However, I don't think a lot of players watch the twister, or frankly care about tournaments.  I have no idea what figure WG makes off of tournament advertising, but I don't think it matches the sales they make year-round from content creators like Bushka or Meadsy doing videos.  I value gameplay over greed.  As players, I think most of you would agree.


I think they’re already buffing premiums bc they know they’ll sell. Right or wrong, that’s already happening.

 

I don’t think many people disagree with the principle of what you’re saying. Having equal access for competitive gameplay sounds fantastic from a player perspective. Or at least a tourney player perspective. That said, I’m with Cru in that I don’t think it’s plausible unless you can give WG a compelling reason...and by compelling reason I’m 100% talking money.

 

Your point about where the revenue streams come from is well taken in that you’re right, we don’t know. However, given that they currently allow premium tanks in tourney it either means that they see value in allowing them to be included or that they haven’t considered your suggestions.


 

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__Crusader6__ #53 Posted 22 November 2019 - 01:29 PM

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Factor in WG awarded twister coins for watching the stream - which went towards a premium tank...

 

WG has many reasons to have players watch tournaments.  

 

As well as the counter argument from players who bought a tank that you’d be seeking to disallow from a tournament. 
 To me that is your biggest issue - as it both causes backlash from spenders, as well as limits WG marketing of premiums for future sales.   
 

  


 


 
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_Jibril #54 Posted 22 November 2019 - 06:58 PM

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Not that I care whether or not a ban is implemented, I think the most pressing and problematic problems affecting comp are low tick rate servers, the lag, scheduling inconsistencies and just the blatant lack of consideration in pro season and the lack of mid-tier teams and players. 

 

While premiums make a reasonable portion of the comp scene, in terms of tank compositions, things like crew skills and a tank pool make a much larger impact on the team's ability than the T-22 or badger count of a team. 

 

 

 

 


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___ez_e___ #55 Posted 22 November 2019 - 07:17 PM

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The easy fix would be to make tournaments tank specific.   
 

Prehaps for each tourney you have to pick from a designated pool of 3 tanks per type.  
 

The buy incentive would be that out of the 3 tanks within the same type, 2 are premium.  So every player would have the incentive of playing the premium tank and not the one non-premium (it’s literally there as an incentive).  Or make it all premium.   
 

Or a specific tank tournament.   
 

These’s definitely a way it can be done to satisfy both wg and players, but history indicates wg doesn’t give a damn.  



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View Post__Crusader6__, on 21 November 2019 - 05:34 AM, said:

T-22 isn’t nearly as OP as many here (cough DMG cough) seem to suggest. 
 

There are some massive weak spots as the V Hull isn’t a true V Hull.  It also has worse DPM than the other Russians, and the same pen as the Obj 140, ( less than the 62 )     
 

Many folks complained about the Mk6 and the M60 before as well as the Badger. 
  WG is not going to ban Premium/Enriched/Collector tanks from tournaments, so if you feel it’s OP, go buy it.  

  

I’ll say this. No other Russian medium at tier 10 can you shoot track and not damage hull. ( like at an angle, to where it SHOULD go through hull and do damage)

T62 and Object 140 can reverse sidescrape ( or they can but fail more often). 

The T22 combines the T62s turret (basically impenetrable) with the Object 140s DPM ( it’s a little less but more then T62). 

This tank is broken. No other tier 10 TECH TREE can compare to it.


Edited by dport02, 22 November 2019 - 10:48 PM.

RNG is rigged !

__Crusader6__ #57 Posted 22 November 2019 - 11:18 PM

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View Postdport02, on 22 November 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

I’ll say this. No other Russian medium at tier 10 can you shoot track and not damage hull. ( like at an angle, to where it SHOULD go through hull and do damage)

T62 and Object 140 can reverse sidescrape ( or they can but fail more often). 

The T22 combines the T62s turret (basically impenetrable) with the Object 140s DPM ( it’s a little less but more then T62). 

This tank is broken. No other tier 10 TECH TREE can compare to it.


Aim. It’s got a large side area above the suspension that is 70mm. 
   Turret roof is also 70mm    DPM is less than both 62 and 140, as it NEEDS CS due to pen.   
 

 


 
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TO_Dominator #58 Posted 23 November 2019 - 12:04 AM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 22 November 2019 - 06:18 PM, said:


Aim. It’s got a large side area above the suspension that is 70mm. 
   Turret roof is also 70mm    DPM is less than both 62 and 140, as it NEEDS CS due to pen.   
 

 

Actually, the section of roof that is penetrable is extremely tiny and the chance of hitting it is incredibly small. The majority of roof is 70mm at 650mm effective. Using no gun depression hitting it is almost impossible. Using the 6 degrees, that "weakspot" disappears. Hitting that weak area of the sides is also very unlikely, because it's tiny as well. At this point, it's got almost nothing to do with aiming. It's pretty much up to RNG.

 

As for the gun, the DPM is only 85 or so less than the 62 and the 140. It's got 240 pen, same as the 140 and 5 less than the 62a, so it doesn't need CS any more than those 2 do.

 


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__Crusader6__ #59 Posted 23 November 2019 - 12:30 AM

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View PostTO_Dominator, on 22 November 2019 - 07:04 PM, said:

Actually, the section of roof that is penetrable is extremely tiny and the chance of hitting it is incredibly small. The majority of roof is 70mm at 650mm effective. Using no gun depression hitting it is almost impossible. Using the 6 degrees, that "weakspot" disappears. Hitting that weak area of the sides is also very unlikely, because it's tiny as well. At this point, it's got almost nothing to do with aiming. It's pretty much up to RNG.

 

As for the gun, the DPM is only 85 or so less than the 62 and the 140. It's got 240 pen, same as the 140 and 5 less than the 62a, so it doesn't need CS any more than those 2 do.

 


What I think the 22 needs is a mobility nerf.  It shouldn’t be faster than the 62, and the same as the 140.  
   
Using the depression doesn’t help you if there is a red slightly above you.  As the roof goes back to 70mm for a large HE shell to wreck your day...  

 

I’ve agreed the T-22 is overcooked prior. But it’s far from invincible, I’ve burned a bunch down in my Standard B when they thought they where impenetrable (pulling out sideways) or getting slightly above it.   


 
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Holy_Outlaw #60 Posted 23 November 2019 - 12:58 AM

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There is also the issue of tank diversity or lack thereof. Remember the Twister cup a couple years ago? 5 Obj.140's or even 7 on some maps. Obviously WG didn't want this, and measures were taken soon after to change this. WG obviously knows lack of tank diversity is bad for the health of the game, in pub play or tournaments. You could say its bad for $$, but its boring for pub players to participate in or for watching tourneys either way. Interest in their product will wane. I think this is a very complex subject, with new consumables and new tank lines seemingly "overbuffed". The last Twister cup had a lot of diversity, for example the 7 team from RU running the Fv4005 one round, and the Amx30B another. Before Twister these were not considered likely to see by most. I would agree accessibility to new/rare tanks is the key. As for how great or not the T22 is, it didn't have a major or overwhelming impact in winning Twister. I remember when I first started playing, watching Pramo vs. Grim on Utube. Lots of E5's being used. After a long absence we actually saw them used again since the addition of the new consumables. 





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