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P2W $$$ Thoughts on WG moving to a pay to win model?

P2w smasher 121 pay to win p2p money

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Kaos_Dynamo #1 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:25 PM

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The crate bonanza that is going on distills for me the new direction that WG is taking. We saw the Helsing and Drac, the 120-1-ft, the Smasher. And at X, the t22.

It looks to me that WG are creating op tanks and selling them at a premium, but limiting the numbers that are purchased, generally through crates. This way they can sell tanks, sometimes costing hundreds of dollars, while keeping the number of those tanks low and reducing the p2w impact in the game.

 

By “op” I mean; tanks that are easy to win with or that have an insane ceiling (Drac is not easy, but the ceiling is huge). For these tanks, they perform beyond their tier for a player. Doing more damage than all the other tanks at that tier for them.

 

I see this as a way for WG to make a huge amount of money, which isn’t a bad thing. My personal thought is that we are starting to see this bleed over into a larger number of matches as more op’s get released. This will increase power creep.

 

Agree/disagree? Thoughts?


Edited by Kaos_Dynamo, 19 November 2019 - 08:42 PM.


Alopex__ #2 Posted 19 November 2019 - 04:43 PM

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 Every game I load in it's against all those same tanks so therefore it's balanced if ur in one too....drac is pretty op but you gotta atleast think to take advantage of it, lycan and helsing not so much. T34 and Lowe are strong but not completely broken. Wz 120-ft is ridiculous and so is smasher. Derp in general is kinda silly atleast in low tiers, corner camping Su's can carry matches and can be hard to spot. Dead rail is a good example, you know they are there but it's open terrain and they will see you with no cover, they can one shot you if ur light before your team takes them down.

will6392 #3 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:12 PM

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Uh, neither the Smasher nor WZ 121-1g FT are in the crates. To my knowledge those two tanks have only been sold for straight up cash at high dollar prices for very short periods of time this year.

Smasher is OP-ish, but has become easier to deal with over time. It also hasn’t been sold since release, so either WG realizes they went too far, or they’re saving it for re-release at blitz fair.

The WZ and T-22 have high ceilings, sure. But if it’s me vs a uni, he’s gonna kill be able to kill me just as easily in an Progetto as he is a T-22. Most players who have the skill to get that much more out of them are invested enough to put out some cash or will just take advantage of tech tree counterparts/cheaper prems that are comparable. Most not great players that get them are going to just be okay in them and it’s not that big of a deal. The cost of not buying prems isn’t being under-gunned, it’s having to roll with the tech tree buffs and play what’s good right now (Foch, Progetto, those British monstrosities).

The nature of the game is that the new thing has to be shiny enough to get sales and tame enough not to break the game. Hard line to balance. That’s the cost to having a game run for years, instead of making people buy the same thing over and over like in FIFA and CoD, and not forcing the subscription/battle pass model on players.

_Crusader6_ #4 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:26 PM

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It think you meant WZ-120 Fake Tank not 121.   It’s a complete joke, it’s way better than its tech tree brother, and the tech tree isn’t a slouch having the best tier 8 reported stats for a TD. 
  Or are you guys referring to the upcoming tier X Chinese premium TD. 

 

Smasher; yeah it’s another broken example of tier 7 premiums. 
 

For those who don’t have the T-22, it is situational, but I wouldn’t say OP. 
It has a 71mm cupola/roof area that be smacked hard, and has a large lower glacis plate. 
  It’s main advantage is trolling bounces on hasty shots, or punching up poor players. 
 

 I would add the K-91 after its alpha buff, it was very good prior and now it’s broken. 
 


 

 
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Kaos_Dynamo #5 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:27 PM

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@darcwolf. That’s the point? These tanks are only available for purchase. For those who haven’t played blitz for years, WG used to have a policy that there would not be P2W premiums. They even continue the narrative now when responding to app criticism. But, clearly many of these tanks are pay to win.

 

@will, thanks for the correction! Both tanks did run $50 still I think? Someone can correct me if I’m wrong. “The nature of the game”, didn’t use to be the nature of this game. That’s what I’m getting at. See above comment.

 

Also, because you can kill a tank doesn’t mean it’s not op. I see that comment frequently when talking about op tanks. They are not invincible, just way above average.


Edited by Kaos_Dynamo, 19 November 2019 - 05:28 PM.


_Cletus #6 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:33 PM

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While I agree that we're getting too many premiums that are too powerful, we need to include OP tech tree tanks in the discussion as well.  Foch, the euro trash OP tank that I can't remember it's name right now, Tiger P, etc.  There's not as many OP tech trees as there are premiums but they are still putting OP tech trees out there.  Maybe as more tech tree lines are released they will continue to be more powerful, balancing the premiums.  I doubt it, and everything else will continue to experience powercreep.....

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will6392 #7 Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:58 PM

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@crusader my bad, I hit too many 1s. And the Fake Tank is great, but definitely vaunted well beyond it’s actual stats. It can be situationally unbeatable (at the perfect ridge from distance, you won’t see it, hit it, or pen it), but can also be pretty unpredictable for the driver (slopes on the front and spaced on the side means you can get bounces, but can’t always rely on them). It’s probably the best VIII TD overall, but it’s generally not as versatile as the Skorp and will lose 1v1 to a fully-equipped ISU every day. Maybe I’ve just played mine enough to see its flaws; but I don’t find I really struggle against others in the WZ.

@Kaos I think Smasher was $40 and WZ was definitely  $50. And the general model for games has changed a lot. When I started in 2014, I would not have considered dropping a dime for tanks. I don’t remember if that was because they were expensive, or if my expectations of what was reasonable for a game changed that much. Now in-game goods are as big of a deal as the purchase price on many games, and coming from others I actually feel like their model is pretty fair. Just my opinion though.

_Crusader6_ #8 Posted 19 November 2019 - 07:53 PM

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View Postwill6392, on 19 November 2019 - 12:58 PM, said:

@Kaos I think Smasher was $40 and WZ was definitely $50. And the general model for games has changed a lot. When I started in 2014, I would not have considered dropping a dime for tanks. I don’t remember if that was because they were expensive, or if my expectations of what was reasonable for a game changed that much. Now in-game goods are as big of a deal as the purchase price on many games, and coming from others I actually feel like their model is pretty fair. Just my opinion though.


The model has changed a lot.  My first premium (Ram II) was a Christmas 2014 Special - $1.99

 

The Hype 59 was the first of the expensive premiums, it came with a bunch of stuff, but was still expensive compared to everything before.    
 

The Ke Ni Otsu was the first OPAF premium tank - but WG pulled it hours after release. 
   Back then premium tanks where generally weaker than the corresponding tech tree, they made credits, but didn’t usually generate WR.   The IS-6 was generally the exception back then. 
 

Now most folks expect a premium to offer superior performance, or at least WG seems to think that. 
  
Of course they also released the T-70/57 in tier 3, that is probably the worst tier 3 tank out there atm. 
 

 

 

 


 

 


 

 
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Kaos_Dynamo #9 Posted 19 November 2019 - 08:51 PM

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@will, I guess that’s true. Now mobile games are notorious for these mechanics. In the context of your response, I guess I just liked that you didn’t have to pay money to be competitive. BaCK iN mY DaY...

 

there are always people who will comment on this that you can be competitive with the tech tree, blah, blah. That’s changing and that’s the point.

 

@cletus, at least the tech tree can be nerfed. Fortunately the 155 is getting the bat this round, whew!

 

In the future with this model, I wonder how many die hards there will still be in the game and if only the whales will be left.



acrisis #10 Posted 19 November 2019 - 09:34 PM

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I agree that things are getting wore to remain competitive. 

 

I always thought WG shot itself on the foot when it nuked the low and mid tiers. Because starting with the game and up to that point, you could look forward to a bi-weekly brand new low to mid tier premium tank for $5-10. A good number of people would buy it with little to no hesitation and have some fun playing something different, figure out the play style, make a little bit of credits, but you bought something straight up and had some fun.

 

Now those lower tiers are pretty much out the window, unless you want to wait forever on matchmaker ( see frequent complaint about late starters on new line grinds ) , you get to spend that amount of coin on 1 or 2 gambling crates ( with 0.5-1-2-3% chance of winning ) and in the higher tiers, your existing decent tier VI premiums got indirect nerfs by WG releasing a bunch of OP tier VII premiums, and in turn it releases more OP tier VIII premiums ... etc. which does not bode well for the standard tier vii and viii premiums from back in the day. The new ones are not OP to the point that they’re auto-win for a newbie, but OP enough that it is at the top of its tier performance and a -1 or grind tank doesn’t quite stand a chance due to no pen or auto bounces in a 1v1 scenario. 

 

The way forward ... who knows. WG has been silent on nerfing some of the tanks, instead buffing some around if, but most have gotten left behind ... perhaps ( probably ? )  because some of those other vehicles don’t get played enough ... so they don’t make it into the published charts. Which is why I still miss wotbstars, at a glance you could check for yourself how tanks did across 100k players. 

 

 


 

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__Frostbite #11 Posted 19 November 2019 - 09:46 PM

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Ok, it's not difficult to prove is that any free-to-play player does not need to pay to win. There's plenty of solid tech tree tanks, and even some OP ones. In terms of gameplay, you can't convert your money into skill. No matter what, it's still possible to be a free-to-play player and stay competitive without any premium vehicles. 

 

What I've found that is the difficult part is staying in the grind. It's a massive drain on my credits when I run all provisions, shoot lots of premium ammo, play tech tree tanks, and go with premium account. If I play Tier 8-10 without premium account, without a premium tank, and run all the provisons/consumables/camo/etc, and shooting premium ammo when necessary, it's extremely difficult to make any credits. In fact, it's basically impossible, even if I'm playing well in all the matches. Attempting to stay as competitive as possible while being a f2p player is no longer a reality. It makes grinding extremely difficult for f2p players, and then the game is no longer a grind, it's just a repetitive cycle of slow progress and the same old boring tanks. 

 

People really shouldn't be shouting "pay-to-win" anymore. They should be shouting "pay-to-survive". The number of free to play players is declining as they have to choose between competitiveness and progression. Only being able to choose one just plain out sucks.

 

It doesn't help that wallet warriors can simply get both with both competitiveness and progression all at the same time when they buy OP premiums these tanks. Premium tanks shouldn't be able to make you progress faster in terms of free xp conversation and credit making, and also be the best tanks of their peers. OP tech tree tanks are just competitive, not efficient. 

 

 


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_Crusader6_ #12 Posted 19 November 2019 - 10:22 PM

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Tier 8-10 has never been a place to gain credits. 
    Pre 2.8 Economic Shift those tiers where still credit losers.  
 

Honestly the best thing that happened to me credit wise was the 3.9  Prammo ‘rebalance’.  
     Now I aim a lot more with standard ammo. 
 

That said, I think we all know WG is a business, they provide a service, and expect to get paid.  
  I don’t mind that higher tiers are more expensive - it then requires effort or a credit card to play a lot up there.  
 

 


 

 
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acrisis #13 Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:03 AM

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There is consensus that there is a pay to advance / progress faster / win more advantage .... and some premium tanks in the right hands will win more. Not blatant lockouts or P2W as with some of the games ... but the balance in some cases has been tipping ... 


 

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___ez_e___ #14 Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:09 AM

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View Post__Frostbite, on 19 November 2019 - 04:46 PM, said:

Ok, it's not difficult to prove is that any free-to-play player does not need to pay to win. There's plenty of solid tech tree tanks, and even some OP ones. In terms of gameplay, you can't convert your money into skill. No matter what, it's still possible to be a free-to-play player and stay competitive without any premium vehicles. 

 

What I've found that is the difficult part is staying in the grind. It's a massive drain on my credits when I run all provisions, shoot lots of premium ammo, play tech tree tanks, and go with premium account. If I play Tier 8-10 without premium account, without a premium tank, and run all the provisons/consumables/camo/etc, and shooting premium ammo when necessary, it's extremely difficult to make any credits. In fact, it's basically impossible, even if I'm playing well in all the matches. Attempting to stay as competitive as possible while being a f2p player is no longer a reality. It makes grinding extremely difficult for f2p players, and then the game is no longer a grind, it's just a repetitive cycle of slow progress and the same old boring tanks. 

 

People really shouldn't be shouting "pay-to-win" anymore. They should be shouting "pay-to-survive". The number of free to play players is declining as they have to choose between competitiveness and progression. Only being able to choose one just plain out sucks.

 

It doesn't help that wallet warriors can simply get both with both competitiveness and progression all at the same time when they buy OP premiums these tanks. Premium tanks shouldn't be able to make you progress faster in terms of free xp conversation and credit making, and also be the best tanks of their peers. OP tech tree tanks are just competitive, not efficient. 

 

 


It does suck.    Let me tell you having to earn xp rather then gold to 100% crew makes a huge difference, but it is tank dependent.   Some tanks you really need the crew at 100% and then wr rises.   
 

I do feel like my plain vanilla tier X is missing the edge premium tanks have at their disposal.  I think it had gotten worse as the sheer number of premiums in each battle has increased.   
 

I think the amount of time to grind and the cost has made it more difficult to learn tier X.  I can’t just play tier X repeatedly like those with premium accounts.   It can be such a credit drain.   So I don’t get the depth of repetition and learning from muscle memory as much as someone with a premium account.  I think that is the main disadvantage.  
 

 



IronBehemoth #15 Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:29 AM

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Most OP tanks tier for tier.. lets see

 

T3: Keni Otsu (Prem)

T4: Matilda

T5: T1 Heavy

T6: Bromwell (Prem)

T7: Smasher (Prem)

T8: Wz-120 (Prem) (Progetto 46 when introduced will take this spot)

T9: Standard B

T10: Foch

 

So roughly half are prem... but then you consider the 2nd, 3rd, 4th place of each..

 

The heavy majority of prems are found in t7-8

 

T6: Bromwell, Jg Pz IV, Pz IV S, M6, T-34-85 Victory (~ Half/Half) - ranked in no particular order

T7: Smasher, Helsing, Tiger P, Rudy, Lupus (Almost entirely prem)

T8: Prog 46 when introduced, Wz-120, Chrysler K, IS-3D, E 75 TS (ALL prem)

T9: Standard B, K-91, 1er Prototype, T55-A, T30 (Majority prem)

 

So you find that the tiers where the premiums are most prevalent, the most OP tanks of that tier are more commonly prems. Therefore, it can be seen that prems, on average, are better than tech tree tanks.

 

 


Edited by IronBehemoth, 20 November 2019 - 12:37 AM.


j_rod #16 Posted 20 November 2019 - 01:37 AM

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Just an idea, but what if Tier X was credit and XP neutral (meaning you never gain/lose credits or XP in a tier X tank) for a F2P player and had marginal earning potential for players with premium accounts? It would allow players that earn their way to tier X to enjoy while neither rewarding nor penalizing them for playing at that level. Conversely, for those that get a premium account, there would be benefit to playing a tier X tank.

I’m sure someone can point out something I’m not considering but I don’t see how this would cause any reduction in revenue for WG

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Gavidoc01 #17 Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:33 AM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 19 November 2019 - 02:53 PM, said:

 

 

Of course they also released the T-70/57 in tier 3, that is probably the worst tier 3 tank out there atm. 
 


FCM Pak 40 disagrees 


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Gavidoc01 #18 Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:40 AM

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View PostIronBehemoth, on 19 November 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

Most OP tanks tier for tier.. lets see

 

T3: Keni Otsu (Prem)

T4: Matilda

T5: T1 Heavy

T6: Bromwell (Prem)

T7: Smasher (Prem)

T8: Wz-120 (Prem) (Progetto 46 when introduced will take this spot)

T9: Standard B

T10: Foch

 

So roughly half are prem... but then you consider the 2nd, 3rd, 4th place of each..

 

The heavy majority of prems are found in t7-8

 

T6: Bromwell, Jg Pz IV, Pz IV S, M6, T-34-85 Victory (~ Half/Half) - ranked in no particular order

T7: Smasher, Helsing, Tiger P, Rudy, Lupus (Almost entirely prem)

T8: Prog 46 when introduced, Wz-120, Chrysler K, IS-3D, E 75 TS (ALL prem)

T9: Standard B, K-91, 1er Prototype, T55-A, T30 (Majority prem)

 

So you find that the tiers where the premiums are most prevalent, the most OP tanks of that tier are more commonly prems. Therefore, it can be seen that prems, on average, are better than tech tree tanks.

 

 


the e75TS is anything but OP. To me the TS stands for TotalShít. Replace the defender and the e75 with the obj 252u. 


Edited by Gavidoc01, 20 November 2019 - 02:41 AM.

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krietenstein34 #19 Posted 20 November 2019 - 03:22 AM

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It's far from pay to win.    They've just made the game easier to progress.  Without getting into every detail....... Really Who the dyck Buys Premium Time anymore?  It used to be like bread.    They've changed the economy.   I'm accepting it. Meh
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Morphman11 #20 Posted 20 November 2019 - 04:17 AM

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View PostIronBehemoth, on 20 November 2019 - 12:29 AM, said:

Most OP tanks tier for tier.. lets see

 

T3: Keni Otsu (Prem)

T4: Matilda

T5: T1 Heavy

T6: Bromwell (Prem)

T7: Smasher (Prem)

T8: Wz-120 (Prem) (Progetto 46 when introduced will take this spot)

T9: Standard B

T10: Foch

 

So roughly half are prem... but then you consider the 2nd, 3rd, 4th place of each..

 

The heavy majority of prems are found in t7-8

 

T6: Bromwell, Jg Pz IV, Pz IV S, M6, T-34-85 Victory (~ Half/Half) - ranked in no particular order

T7: Smasher, Helsing, Tiger P, Rudy, Lupus (Almost entirely prem)

T8: Prog 46 when introduced, Wz-120, Chrysler K, IS-3D, E 75 TS (ALL prem)

T9: Standard B, K-91, 1er Prototype, T55-A, T30 (Majority prem)

 

So you find that the tiers where the premiums are most prevalent, the most OP tanks of that tier are more commonly prems. Therefore, it can be seen that prems, on average, are better than tech tree tanks.

 

 


Obviously you understand nothing. Cromwell B is not op as if you put any moron in it they won’t all perform well, compare that to the ARL and it’s a different story. T-34 Victory is not a tank to complain about as it practically has the exact same stats as the regular T-34-85. The Rudy in no shape or form can be considered OP in this new meta as it is not competitive at tier 8, it is just a reskin of a T-43 and could be stated as a balanced or even underperforming vehicle. Smasher is a smasher, derp guns require 0 skill. Helsing is not even that OP, as it still requires good positioning to do well in. The Lupus is still under debate and at the moment I’d still put the T29 above it. You haven’t played the Progetto M46 nor has it been released so thus you have absolutely 0 evidence backing any claim up. WZ-120-1G FT is probably the most boring vehicle to drive up to date. Chrysler K is a situational vehicle at best and there is a good reason why majority have stopped playing theirs. IS-3D is situational as well and is played the same amount as the Chrysler K. Obviously you aren’t a decent tier 8 player as you haven’t listed the WZ-112-1 nor the OBJ. 252U and some would still include the IS-5 although personally I reject this as I believe the IS-6 is still better and that vehicle is not ever going to make a comeback. Standard B is up for grabs, the gun handling is annoying but a clip 3 shells that you don’t have to wait 15+ seconds to reload will help anyone out. The  AMX 30 Prot is quite literally a stock vehicle which is enough to say. The T-55A differs almost in 0 ways from the T-54 and no one thinks the T-54 is OP considering what it used to be. T30 is not an OP tank, there is nothing supporting that. It is fairly well balanced as the turret will actually struggle to bounce tier X standard ammo off the cheeks. K-91 I have only played 2 battles after it received a buff and from that limited amount it felt like the same exact tank which isn’t saying much as it was only alright at best during its release. You are just picking off premiums and calling them OP with absolutely 0 reason and evidence. Also I highly doubt that you even own half of those vehicles you listed. No one plays the E-75TS because it is god awful so that is another example of you noticing one player have a good game and you jumping to far fetched conclusions. I own all these tanks listed apart from the T30 which I have played on the RU server and it didn’t stand out as anything fancy. It is a nice TD that can be flexible but it won’t put dpm anything, out snipe another TD at range, won’t zoom in positions early, nor will bounce shells all day long.







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