Jump to content


Why does the Panther 2 feel like a downgrade?


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

Quiet_Autumn #1 Posted 07 December 2019 - 03:02 AM

    Lance-corporal

  • Players
  • 15602 battles
  • 64
  • Member since:
    11-13-2016

I love all things cats, so of course I have 3 panthers, 2 leopards, and 2 tigers. But of all my kitties, the Panther 2 easily seems to be the worst. It does significantly less damage per minute than the Panther 1, has the same engine, is heavier so it moves a lot slower, and its armor is even more flimsy in comparison to its tier than the Panther 1. You can't even keep a track permanently broken with the Panther 2 like you can with the Panther 1.

 

The only perk I can see is its 180 more hp, the fact that its gun does 60 more damage per shot so I guess it performs better if it can keep hiding, and I guess it also has usable high explosive shells unlike the Panther 1 which can't pen anything. I mean the Tiger 1 is a tier lower but has the exact same hp as well as doing the exact same amount of damage per minute, but with better armor and being almost as fast.

 

Why is the Panther 2 so bad?


Edited by Quiet_Autumn, 07 December 2019 - 04:00 AM.


tankeatingtiger #2 Posted 07 December 2019 - 03:14 AM

    Luvs His Hellkitty

  • Players
  • 19615 battles
  • 2,519
  • [DETH]
  • Member since:
    11-19-2016

View PostQuiet_Autumn, on 06 December 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:

I love all things cats, so of course I have 3 panthers, 2 leopards, and 2 tigers. But of all my kitties, the Panther 2 easily seems to be the worst. It does significantly less damage per minute than the Panther 1, has a weaker engine by like 100 horse power, is heavier so that weaker engine makes it move a lot slower, and its armor is even more flimsy in comparison to its tier than the Panther 1. You can't even keep a track permanently broken with the Panther 2 like you can with the Panther 1.

 

The only perk I can see is its 180 more hp, the fact that its gun does 60 more damage per shot so I guess it performs better if it can keep hiding, and I guess it also has usable high explosive shells unlike the Panther 1 which can't pen anything. I mean the Tiger 1 is a tier lower but has the exact same hp as well as doing the exact same amount of damage per minute, but with better armor and being almost as fast.

 

Why is the Panther 2 so bad?

I personally enjoyed the gun upgrade, the 220 alpha made me actually feel relevant. The armor is not bad and the speed is decent. I wouldn't say it is a bad tank, it is just a mediocre tank is a tier full of strong meds. And saying it is the worst of your cats is putting it up against some pretty strong competition.

Also FYI the engine power is the same, it is just the extra weight.


YouTube Channel: 

https://www.youtube....tankeatingtiger

“You'd be bitter, too, if you only had eight brain cells and your significant other was jar of warm mayonnaise”

-Blartch on Kv-2 drivers


LautyWX #3 Posted 07 December 2019 - 03:33 AM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 27902 battles
  • 420
  • [KRONO]
  • Member since:
    10-22-2016

View PostQuiet_Autumn, on 07 December 2019 - 12:02 AM, said:

I love all things cats, so of course I have 3 panthers, 2 leopards, and 2 tigers. But of all my kitties, the Panther 2 easily seems to be the worst. It does significantly less damage per minute than the Panther 1, has a weaker engine by like 100 horse power, is heavier so that weaker engine makes it move a lot slower, and its armor is even more flimsy in comparison to its tier than the Panther 1. You can't even keep a track permanently broken with the Panther 2 like you can with the Panther 1.

 

The only perk I can see is its 180 more hp, the fact that its gun does 60 more damage per shot so I guess it performs better if it can keep hiding, and I guess it also has usable high explosive shells unlike the Panther 1 which can't pen anything. I mean the Tiger 1 is a tier lower but has the exact same hp as well as doing the exact same amount of damage per minute, but with better armor and being almost as fast.

 

Why is the Panther 2 so bad?

the tank is not that bad,you have a good top speed,you can pen targets with ease(200mm of pen) + 8 degrees of gun depression,and the turret is pretty "small" in hull down and has some armor.so the best spot for you is beign hull down and working flanks.

 

the only thing that i think this tank needs is more hull armor,to make it a more e50 like tank.

 

plz dont check my stats


Edited by LautyWX, 07 December 2019 - 03:58 AM.

making a signature.....

Dragonfly741 #4 Posted 07 December 2019 - 06:55 AM

    Private

  • Players
  • 13584 battles
  • 5
  • [_UYD_]
  • Member since:
    06-26-2014

I actually unironically like the Panther 2

Its terrain resistance stats actually make it about as fast as the Panther 1 and its top speed is actually really good for a tier 8 med. Only 4 tier 8 meds have a higher top end speed and 2 of them, the CDC and the Lorraine are made of paper. Its sluggish acceleration and high top end speed make engine power boost essential, and all the gameplay of it on YouTube never has it and then they all diss the Panther 2 for its lack of speed. This is very important; most meds have around a 50 kph top speed and the extra 5 kph allows you to take key early game positions before other meds get there 

The upper glacis plate is very trollish when angled and I have found that by facehugging russian meds or lower tier meds then pulling back a bit and repeating that will often cause them to bounce their shots, although you should only do this when brawling.

The 8 degrees of gun depression compared to the Panther 1's paltry 6 degrees makes it so that you can actually hulldown consistently and the small turret combined with the large gun mantlet makes the turret bouncier than at first glance, especially if you keep it moving, which should be easy with the gun's excellent accuracy. Its dpm is actually decent for a tier 8 med, but for some reason tier 7s get peashooters while their tier 8s get more balanced guns

The tank rewards good positioning and punishes mistakes quickly since its large size attracts shots and without the engine power boost, you can't really re position easily. Despite being aesthetically very similiar, the two Panthers have somewhat different playstyles since the Panther 1 can frontally pen basically all tier 7s but has no gun depression while the Panther 2 struggles to pen heavies frontally without prammo but has good gun depression.

Btw you can mount the panther 1 gun on the 2 if you really want the peashooter.


This is a signature. I am signature. Very signature. OK


__Crusader6__ #5 Posted 07 December 2019 - 08:31 AM

    Annoying Mod

  • Players
  • 61484 battles
  • 12,212
  • [SURG3]
  • Member since:
    12-08-2014

Many tier 8 Meds feel like downgrades. 
  Because they are.  
 

Tier for tier meds get progressively worse compared to same tier heavies, after tier 7. 



 
Tank Hoarder: 389 tanks in Garage:  385/395 aced
 
 
    Wallet Warrior: Loyal Original M60 owner
 
Sorry I haven’t aced the Smasher yet - So I’m still ruining tier 6-8 

 


RandomDeamon #6 Posted 07 December 2019 - 11:09 AM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 50715 battles
  • 467
  • [FL0CK]
  • Member since:
    07-04-2014
You are not wrong. It does feel like a step down. It is just one of those tanks you have to suffer through to get to the better higher tier tanks. It’s not a terrible tank, just not outstanding in any way. 

Chariot_Solace #7 Posted 07 December 2019 - 01:40 PM

    Stug Life

  • Players
  • 46301 battles
  • 2,900
  • [_STR8]
  • Member since:
    12-06-2016

A medium having the same hp as a heavy a tier lower is a pretty standard occurrence throughout the game. That’s just how the game is constructed.
 

The Tiger I doesn’t have better armor either. It has more side armor sure but the front of the tiger I is weak as hell. Everyone can pen it’s upper plate with AP. The Panther II has a much better upper plate and turret. It’s not the kind of armor that you can bully people with, but it will get you bounces if you know how to use it. The effective thickness of the upper plate isn’t that high straight on (about 170mm). but that’s not terrible by any means. Most tier 7 mediums and lights have 145-160mm of AP pen, so it’s enough to make them load prammo to pen you. And it has decent raw thickness (100mm) which is useful for angling in coordination with cover. With practice you can master how to angle it around dunes and obstacles and bait bad shots out of your enemies. Just keep that lower plate hidden. You can do this with the Panther I as well. Tier for tier, I’d say their upper plate is about the same. Just know who’s shooting at you and how much pen they have. Both Panthers have enough side armor to side scrape. Lot’s of people will tell you otherwise and they are wrong. Just know your angles, run enhanced armor to prevent overmatching (Panther I only. Panther II doesn’t face any guns big enough to overmatch. I still recommend enhanced armor though. You’ll get more bounces overall and it will be harder for derp guns to pen your sides and rear with HE) and don’t forget to bait a bad shot out of your opponent first if they are pre aimed. Lot’s of people forget that. They just angle out and get penned. The center mounted turret design is good for side scraping as you don’t have to pull back as far or expose as much. Side scraping in these tanks is key to be effective with them. This is true of the whole line but even more so for the Panthers as their upper plates require more manipulation to get bounces than the E50s so saving hp is more difficult. The turret is pretty straight forward.The cheeks are small and the outer edges are strong enough to bounce most guns you see. Just rock back and forth.

 

The Panther II and Tiger I share the same gun, which is also a fairly common occurrence for meds and heavies a tier lower, but the Panther II has much better aim time and reticle bloom, which lets you snap shots in much more quickly and accurately. This is one of the Panther II’s greatest strengths. The gun is basically point and click with minimal exposure time. You also failed to mention the gun depression advantage. The Panther II can work ridge lines pretty well with its 8 degrees. The Tiger I has 7. One degree doesn’t sound like a lot, but it makes a big difference. The Panther I has a painful 6. Combined with the tall profile, it’s nigh useless on ridge lines. And it can be face hugged by tanks with strong turrets and torn apart easily because of this. The Panther II doesn’t have this problem.

 

Technically yes, the Panther I has more DPM, but that’s just another occurrence of how the game is constructed. Almost all tier 7 mediums have more dpm than their tier 8 counterparts, but the tier 8s have more armor, more hp, more alpha etc. It works. Don’t get caught up on that. And Panther II’s dpm is great. It’s best in class actually. If you want to get technical, the CDC and 59 Patton have a tiny bit more, but that’s only because 90mm guns have 225 alpha compared to 220 for 88mms. 5 alpha per shot means just about nothing and their reload is the same - very good. So it can definitely permatrack stuff, it just depends entirely on what kind of tank your shooting, what kind of equipment they’re running, what their crew training and skills are, etc. The pen is good too. 202mm is a lot better than the 170-180 you get on most American, Russian, and Chinese meds at tier 8. It’s only a little more than you get on the Panther I, but that tank spoils you with a crazy 198mm when everyone else in class is running around with 150ish.

 

As far as mobility goes, it’s not fantastic but it is adequate. It’s a bit sluggish and the power to weight ratio is slightly worse than the Panther I, but don’t forget about terrain resistances. When you factor those in, the effective hp/ton is actually a bit better. 55kph top speed isn’t bad either. It struggles to circle heavies without hitting track shots but it has enough mobility to make map rotations efficiently.


The heavy weight and high top speed also make it a fantastic tank for ramming just like the rest of the line, but I’m sure you already know this. This can really give you a leg up in a brawl. Fun fact: it is actually heavier than an IS-3.

 

All things considered, I really like the tank. It’s really underrated and probably one of my overall favorites. A lot of people who don’t like it, I feel don’t play it to it’s strengths. Try to take advantage of that dpm. Know you can burn stuff down if you need to. Try to trade 2 shots for every shot you eat  if you have to trade. Master your angles. Side scrape a lot. Ram when given the opportunity. Use that accurate gun to hit shots that other tanks can’t. Hope this helps. Enjoy.

 


 

 


Tier Xs: 18 Lines I'm Grinding: 7 Favorite Tank: E75 Top 100 Tanks: 60 Premiums: 66 Aced: 248/255

https://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/Chariot_Solace


StarFox__McCloud #8 Posted 07 December 2019 - 06:38 PM

    Junior Sergeant

  • Players
  • 3245 battles
  • 150
  • [UN10N]
  • Member since:
    02-26-2019

View Post__Crusader6__, on 07 December 2019 - 08:31 AM, said:

Many tier 8 Meds feel like downgrades. 
  Because they are.  
 

Tier for tier meds get progressively worse compared to same tier heavies, after tier 7. 

Pretty much.



__Frostbite #9 Posted 07 December 2019 - 08:50 PM

    Cold as Ice

  • Players
  • 27054 battles
  • 3,049
  • [_STR8]
  • Member since:
    06-13-2016
Chariot, enhanced armor doesn’t help with overmatch. This was tested in training rooms years ago, the armor boost only increases the armor effectiveness, but not the literal thickness of the armor.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Join WoT Blitz's official English Discord server!!

Click me!

PM me in-game, on the forums, or on Discord (Frost#3656) if you have any questions about WoT Blitz

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chariot_Solace #10 Posted 07 December 2019 - 09:11 PM

    Stug Life

  • Players
  • 46301 battles
  • 2,900
  • [_STR8]
  • Member since:
    12-06-2016

View Post__Frostbite, on 07 December 2019 - 02:50 PM, said:

Chariot, enhanced armor doesn’t help with overmatch. This was tested in training rooms years ago, the armor boost only increases the armor effectiveness, but not the literal thickness of the armor.


I know it doesn’t affect armor thickness, but it most definitely does affect ovrematch mechanics. Hop in a training room and try to overmatch the Panther I’s side armor with a 152mm gun. It’s over 3x the thickness but it won’t work. I’ll show you.


Tier Xs: 18 Lines I'm Grinding: 7 Favorite Tank: E75 Top 100 Tanks: 60 Premiums: 66 Aced: 248/255

https://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/Chariot_Solace


__Crusader6__ #11 Posted 08 December 2019 - 01:29 AM

    Annoying Mod

  • Players
  • 61484 battles
  • 12,212
  • [SURG3]
  • Member since:
    12-08-2014

View PostChariot_Solace, on 07 December 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:


I know it doesn’t affect armor thickness, but it most definitely does affect ovrematch mechanics. Hop in a training room and try to overmatch the Panther I’s side armor with a 152mm gun. It’s over 3x the thickness but it won’t work. I’ll show you.


That is a glitch then. 
     



 
Tank Hoarder: 389 tanks in Garage:  385/395 aced
 
 
    Wallet Warrior: Loyal Original M60 owner
 
Sorry I haven’t aced the Smasher yet - So I’m still ruining tier 6-8 

 


Chariot_Solace #12 Posted 08 December 2019 - 03:29 AM

    Stug Life

  • Players
  • 46301 battles
  • 2,900
  • [_STR8]
  • Member since:
    12-06-2016

View Post__Crusader6__, on 07 December 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:


That is a glitch then. 
     


I highly doubt it. It has been this way for quite a while. 


Tier Xs: 18 Lines I'm Grinding: 7 Favorite Tank: E75 Top 100 Tanks: 60 Premiums: 66 Aced: 248/255

https://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/Chariot_Solace


__Crusader6__ #13 Posted 08 December 2019 - 03:52 AM

    Annoying Mod

  • Players
  • 61484 battles
  • 12,212
  • [SURG3]
  • Member since:
    12-08-2014

View PostChariot_Solace, on 07 December 2019 - 10:29 PM, said:


I highly doubt it. It has been this way for quite a while. 


When this first came out we tested it repeatedly. 
  We brought it up to Dev’s and they explained the method was like the RHA Factor in that it made armor more effective like was thicker - but specifically didn’t affect overmatch. 
 

Panther 1 has 55-58 effective side armor due to angle even when shooting straight 90degree to the hull, It’s not flat, 152 should not overmatch it. Unless you are shooting at an angle to reduce the effective armor.  O

 

Even Armor Inspector which doesn’t factor in Enhanced Armor will tell you, you can’t overmatch it with a 152mm. 

 

 



 
Tank Hoarder: 389 tanks in Garage:  385/395 aced
 
 
    Wallet Warrior: Loyal Original M60 owner
 
Sorry I haven’t aced the Smasher yet - So I’m still ruining tier 6-8 

 


Chariot_Solace #14 Posted 08 December 2019 - 05:06 AM

    Stug Life

  • Players
  • 46301 battles
  • 2,900
  • [_STR8]
  • Member since:
    12-06-2016

View Post__Crusader6__, on 07 December 2019 - 09:52 PM, said:


When this first came out we tested it repeatedly. 
  We brought it up to Dev’s and they explained the method was like the RHA Factor in that it made armor more effective like was thicker - but specifically didn’t affect overmatch. 
 

Panther 1 has 55-58 effective side armor due to angle even when shooting straight 90degree to the hull, It’s not flat, 152 should not overmatch it. Unless you are shooting at an angle to reduce the effective armor.  O

 

Even Armor Inspector which doesn’t factor in Enhanced Armor will tell you, you can’t overmatch it with a 152mm. 

 

 


Overmatching does not factor in effective thickness. It factors in nominal thickness because that’s what overmatching is. If the shell is 3x the nominal thickness of the armor plate, it will penetrate at any angle. However, this rule stopped holding true in Blitz some time ago. I’m not sure why that is, because nothing was announced. I can only make an educated guess, and based on 152mms bouncing off a 50mm enhanced armor plate, I am decided on enhanced armor being the cause.  I remember the “hidden homogenization factor improving metal quality” explanation of enhanced armor. It’s a shame those statistics are hidden and WG failed to explain fully, but I am down to hop in a training room and test these things out if you are.


Tier Xs: 18 Lines I'm Grinding: 7 Favorite Tank: E75 Top 100 Tanks: 60 Premiums: 66 Aced: 248/255

https://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/Chariot_Solace


__Crusader6__ #15 Posted 08 December 2019 - 03:33 PM

    Annoying Mod

  • Players
  • 61484 battles
  • 12,212
  • [SURG3]
  • Member since:
    12-08-2014

CS, I sent you a PM - 
 

Mainly as I want to explain my findings to you to see if you can make sense of them.  
 

 



 
Tank Hoarder: 389 tanks in Garage:  385/395 aced
 
 
    Wallet Warrior: Loyal Original M60 owner
 
Sorry I haven’t aced the Smasher yet - So I’m still ruining tier 6-8 

 





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users