29 replies to this topic

[IronBehemoth]

If you're asking the difference between HE and Heat, its probably worth mentioning that you can buy Heat with credits rather than gold. Theres an arrow button that you click and it'll change it to use credits instead. A surprising amount of people don't know about it and are thus stuck either spending gold on premium ammo or not using it at all.

[_Crusader6_]

Also remember shell normalization. 
  HEAT and HE get no normalization- so what you see if what you get for pen.  
AP and APCR get various degrees of normalization- they they ‘see’ less effective armor that HE and HEAT. 
 There is a really good tank boom episode on shell types so I won’t waste the time rehashing it.  
 

This can be important on some tanks that have AP/APCR as standard and premium shells, as well as those that have AP/HEAT or APCR/HEAT as the relative standard and premium.  
 

 

[IronBehemoth]

I'll rehash normalization real quick. It's the degree that the shell is willing to go "with" the armor slant. If the tank's armor plate is at a 45 degree angle, AP shells, just like in real life, will want to deflect up a bit. If they deflect up completely, that's obviously a bounced shell. However, they can deflect up a slight amount (5 degrees with AP) and thus gain an advantage in regards to penetration assuming they DO pen. That's because the shell, accounting for normalization AKA that 5 degrees it can deflect up in the same direction of the armor, reduces the effective thickness of the armor from its base thickness plus the addition from the 45 degree slant to its base thickness plus the addition from now only a 40 degree slant.

For that reason, people prefer AP over APCR shells (which have only 2 degrees normalization) because shells with higher normalization pen slanted armor better.

Edited by IronBehemoth, 23 July 2020 - 12:45 AM.

[Gavidoc01]

IronBehemoth, on 22 July 2020 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'll rehash normalization real quick. It's the degree that the shell is willing to go "with" the armor slant. If the tank's armor plate is at a 45 degree angle, AP shells, just like in real life, will want to deflect up a bit. If they deflect up completely, that's obviously a bounced shell. However, they can deflect up a slight amount (5 degrees with AP) and thus gain an advantage in regards to penetration assuming they DO pen. That's because the shell, accounting for normalization AKA that 5 degrees it can deflect up in the same direction of the armor, reduces the effective thickness of the armor from its base thickness plus the addition from the 45 degree slant to its base thickness plus the addition from now only a 40 degree slant.

For that reason, people prefer AP over APCR shells (which have only 2 degrees normalization) because shells with higher normalization pen slanted armor better.

above is. Great description. Some images to support the explanation. 
 

is-3 standard round is AP. Against the upper plate of a Tiger II it is the equivalent of 214mm  of armor due to the 5 degrees of normalization. 
 

Spoiler

 

An Is-5 uses APcR as the standard round. Against the upper plate of a Tiger II it is the equivalent of 225mm of armor due to the 2 degrees of normalization. 
 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by Gavidoc01, 23 July 2020 - 12:57 AM.

[Schantzy]

Is the 2 and 5 degrees the standard for every pace and heat shell, or god forbid does it weary by tank?   

[Gavidoc01]

Schantzy, on 22 July 2020 - 09:47 PM, said:

Is the 2 and 5 degrees the standard for every pace and heat shell, or god forbid does it weary by tank?   

only AP and APCR. Doesn’t matter the tank. 
 

HE and Heat don’t have normalization. 

[otirruborez]

ap is the best ammo possible pen for pen. hate tanks that use apcr as standard. the shell velocity doesn't really help if you can aim.

 

when you can't reliably pen a tank is when you switch to premium ammo. for the most part prem ammo will easily go through most hull armor except for a few outliers. if you see red, just click the premium ammo and see if the red goes away...if it does, fire.

 

tiger 2 for instance is notorious for needing prem ammo to even be hurt by most tier 8 tanks. the armor on that tank is at the threshold of being just over most guns penetration without prem ammo, to the entire tank being a free pen to premium ammo. i would say over half my total premium ammo fired at tier 8 is at tigers.

 

HE on the other hand is only used against extremely low armor(light tanks, some td's). even side armor on most tanks will not be penned by he. good use for it is to stop caps as you will almost always do damage, even if the damage is insignificant.

Edited by otirruborez, 23 July 2020 - 10:12 AM.

[Dirk_The_Dragon_Slayer]

jahawa, on 21 July 2020 - 03:29 PM, said:

HEAT has always been a mystery to me. I understand the concept, but have not learned well how to use it correctly. Especially on the T49. Sometimes HEAT just does nothing on point blank shots to the sides and rears of tanks. Maybe I'm missing shots because of the bad dispersion on the T49, but it is a bummer when you are about to take out a tank with HEAT and it rolls a big far ZERO.

Yup. I never use HEAT because 19 out of 20 shots do nothing. It makes no sense I cannot figure out what the problem is, so I just don't use it. If I have a tank with it, I usually just carry one or two rounds, but never use them. The exception would be the missiles which seem to function better.

[IronBehemoth]

Dirk_The_Dragon_Slayer, on 24 July 2020 - 12:23 AM, said:

Yup. I never use HEAT because 19 out of 20 shots do nothing. It makes no sense I cannot figure out what the problem is, so I just don't use it. If I have a tank with it, I usually just carry one or two rounds, but never use them. The exception would be the missiles which seem to function better.

Heat is effective only if you also run calibrated shells. Calibrated gives heat +30 pen at t10 whereas apcr only gets like +15 pen

[_Crusader6_]

Dirk_The_Dragon_Slayer, on 23 July 2020 - 07:23 PM, said:

Yup. I never use HEAT because 19 out of 20 shots do nothing. It makes no sense I cannot figure out what the problem is, so I just don't use it. If I have a tank with it, I usually just carry one or two rounds, but never use them. The exception would be the missiles which seem to function better.

Spaced Armor - tracks, side skirts, some hulls, gun shields, road wheels, drive sprockets, return rollers, all take the impact from the HEAT warhead.  
   HEAT is a shaped charge - in the Blitz era these are all single warhead rounds - so the pen from the warhead needs to be able to pen the spaced armor - carry the space in between and pen the primary armor.   
 

 So you can sometimes pen spaced armor with HEAT - but only certain portions where it’s either thin - and has little space Before the primary armor.  
 

Best bet to any question on pen is to look at targets in Armor Inspector. 
  Also since AI doesn’t factor the 4% EA bonus - think about what 104% of the effective armor would do. 
 

Plus when you have failed pens you don’t understand- upload the replay to Map Inspector. You can see your hit in Amor Inspector - and learn from that.