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Low-Tier Tech Tree Rework(PART 2):Reasoning, Execution, and additional guns.

tech tree rework wargaming is stupid cookie update 5.5 I like trains

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What do you think of this proposal

  1. Awesome! (7 votes [53.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.85%

  2. It needs some work (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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  4. I want a 60TP (0 votes [0.00%])

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  5. Cookie? (2 votes [15.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.38%

  6. THIS IS SO DARN AWESOME KEEP IT UP (1 vote [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  7. THIS SUCKS I HATE IT SO MUCH (1 vote [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  8. I like trains (2 votes [15.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.38%

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daREAL_trainboi #1 Posted 07 November 2020 - 03:52 AM

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PLEASE NOTE:This post is very, very, very long. So grab a cup of coffee, tea, hot chocolate, dirt-water, etc. and settle down.

I welcome any tips, suggestions, and constructive criticism to the table, as long as it isn't slamming my winrate, qualification to do this, etc. 

 

After several weeks of research, planning, and questioning why Wargaming exists, I've finally finished drafting out the new solution that is the best system for new players as well as adding variety and training newbies for the high tiers. This includes a rework of almost all the Tech Trees as well as additional guns for several tanks, which I will cover later. But first, some background.

 

The post-5.5 Tech Tree eliminated variety and challenges for newer players, and they are making their way up the Tech Tree much quicker than before 5.5. Because of this, unskilled players (like myself) are finding themselves in gameplay that annoys average and unicum players, ruining the high tiers. In addition, Tiers I-IV are so vanilla and basic that it offers little information on what players will be facing at tiers V, VI and above. In short-the Tech Trees need to be reverted, right?

 

Not so fast. While bringing back the old Tech Trees sounds nice, it really isn't. While it's obvious players learn quicker about complicated mechanics making them think tactically and play better, no one wants to be stuck at Tier I researching 3, 4, even 5 Tier II vehicles. The grind to the mid-tier can take so long that people will get turned off, thus bringing in less new players. This can be unfortunate for the casual player and really could hurt WG's ability to bring in new players.

 

Luckily, I've devised a system that is clear and more basic, yet offers so much more depth and training for newer players before Tier V and VI. The system works like this:

Tiers I and II will remain the same for simplicity's sake, getting newbies into the basic game knowledge.

At Tier III for most nations, the tank destroyer split happens. Moving this split down to Tier III rather than IV trains players on TD tactics and helps them get ingrained into how to play these vehicles with less skilled players and bots. No large caliber howitzers are allowed for these vehicles, however.

At Tier IV for most nations, the line of standard vehicles splits into two. This is usually the split between the future medium and heavy lines. While the Tier IV tanks don't need to be one medium and one heavy, they do share similar gameplay for the rest of their line. In addition, howitzers with a caliber of 90mm or greater* are available on tank destroyers only.

Tier V brings more splits, often with 3 or 4 tanks in the Tech Tree at that tier. In addition, the large caliber howitzers are now available on all tanks until tapering off at Tiers 6-7. In some cases, the TD line splits into two branches.

By Tier VI, all the branches are usually formed and remain a single line until Tier X.

*All of the howitzers will get reworked, using the Nightmare as a base. 10.5cm guns with HEAT and HE do 280/410 damage, while 10.5cm guns with AP, HEAT, and HE do 280/240/410 damage. The 3.7-inch howitzers on British vehicles have AP/HEAT/HE rounds with 260/220/370 damage. Finally, several vehicles at Tiers IV, V, and VI will get additional non-howitzer guns.

 

Now, I'll go through the US, German, Soviet, British, and French changes in detail, and briefly touch on the Chinese, Japanese, and European nation. These changes for the most part are finalized, but if you have any tank ideas feel free to suggest them. In the future I might go back and revise this thread including your suggestions.

 

We'll start off with the USA, beginning with a potentially controversial change. For all players who want me to add back the T82, I'm sorry. Instead, the Tier III TD will be the T56 GMC, ported over from PC. It's a fairly standard Tier III TD with decent mobility, paper armor, and a choice of two guns-a 57mm with 90/70 alpha damage and 110/180 penetration, and a 75mm with 101/157 penetration and   160/135 alpha damage (the same top gun on the M8A1). Tier IV brings a Tech Tree split between the M7 and the T6 Medium. The T6 is essentially a Tier IV Sherman on the outside but plays more like a heavy tank. It has thick armor for a medium, but poor speed and maneuverability. It has two 75mm guns-the stock M2 gun is also found on the T6E1, and the top M3 is the same stock gun on the Tier V Sherman, with no changes except minor accuracy, aiming time, and reload nerfs. In addition, the M8A1 will receive the same 57mm gun on the T56 GMC as the DPM-oriented weapon, compared to the damage-oriented AT M7. 

The T6 will lead onto the T1 Heavy as it has the same playstyle, but can also research the M4 Sherman. The M7 can also research the Sherman, but what's the point of playing it if you can just play the T6? I'll get to that problem in a bit, as I have more Tier V changes to cover. The M4 Sherman will get it's old 105mm back with the standard 280/240/410 damage with 53/102/38 penetration. The M10 Wolverine will get a nearly identical gun. In addition, the TD split will occur at Tier V with a reworked T67 coming back. The 57mm M1 gun will be the stock gun, and the top gun will remain the same except an alpha damage nerf (165>160 and 135>130). The T67 leads to the Hellcat and the Wolverine to the Jackson. Before I deal with the M7 problem, it should be noted that the M4A3E8 and T20 will also get the 105mm M4 that is on the M4 Sherman. Now, the M7 problem. With the T6 leading to the M4 and the T1, there should be no point to the M7. However, it will also lead to a reworked Tier V Light. I considered moving the Chaffee down to Tier V and reworking the T21, but instead the T21 will be moved down to Tier V. This is not out of desperation, as in real life the T21 preceded the development of the T24, later the Chaffee. A stock gun will be added with the same alpha damage and 120/165/24 penetration, and the top gun will be toned down in stats to fit Tier V. The T21 leads to both the T37 and the Chaffee, and thus the US Tech Tree rework is complete.

 

Germany

Hopefully this goes quicker, but knowing me it probably won't. As expected, the Marder II will return as a Tier III TD, but with some major changes. The stock gun aka the current gun will have its damage reduced from 180/140 to 140/100, but the reload will improve. The top gun trades damage (with only 135/90) but improves in penetration (108/154), reload, accuracy, and DPM making it the overall better gun to use. Tier IV brings the split between the Pz.IV D and an improved D.W. 2. The front and side armor on the hull will be improved, with the lower plate from 50 to 70, the upper plate from 65 to 100, and the sides from 50 to 55. The turret armor will go up from 75 to 100 on the front. In addition as a Tech Tree vehicle, it gets a stock gun-this time the same top 5cm gun on the Pz. III with improved reload and soft stats. Finally at Tier IV, the Hetzer gets its infamous 105mm back albeit toned down-280/240/410 damage and 64/104/53 penetration. Tier V brings a ton of changes. Firstly, the D.W.2 leads on to the VK 30.01H, with similar changes. The lower plate armor will to up to 90 mm, the upper to 115, and the sides from 50 to 80. The turret armor also goes up from 100 to 110. The top gun will remain, but the 10.5cm that was added to the Hetzer will also be added to this vehicle. The stock gun is the same top gun on the D.W. 2. In addition, several vehicles will get additional guns. The 10.5cm I discussed earlier will also be available for the Pz. IV G and StuG III G, and the 5cm L/60L gun with 80/70/100 alpha and 100/130/15 will be added to the VK 16.02 Leopard. And finally, the Pz.Sfl.IVc will be re-added as part of the Tier V TD split. The current top gun will remain, but a stock 7.5cm with 139/174/38 penetration and 160/135/200 damage and the 1st 8.8cm with the same penetration but 220/190/270 alpha damage and the best DPM out of the three. 

Tier VI offers small changes. The tank destroyers will remain the same, and the VK 30.01H will take over from the Pz. IV G as the path to the VK3001P and VK3601H. Those vehicles will also get the aforementioned 10.5cm howitzer as a stock option. The Pz.IV G will now lead to both the VK3001D and the VK 30.02 M, with an upper plate buff from 60mm to 90mm to make it more like the Panther, the tank it leads to. The Leopard will now not be required to unlock the German mediums, and only leads to the VK2801. With that, the German Tech Tree rework is finished.

 

*yawns* Are you still with me? I hope so...

 

Next up are the Soviets, with some of the largest changes. Let's start small though. Tier III TD's come back in the form of the SU-76. The alpha damage of the top ZiS-3A gun will reduce back to 140/120, with reload time adjusted accordingly. In addition, it gets a stock 57mm gun-the ZiS-8S, with 90/70 alpha damage and 75/112 penetration. At Tier IV, the line of standard tanks splits in two. The A-20 remains but a vastly rebalanced and improved T-28 will be the other vehicle. Firstly, the top speed will be reduced from 45 to 28, with the traverse speed slower and the P2W ratio adjusted making it more like a heavy tank in terms of mobility. In addition, the armor will be vastly improved. The front lower plate of the hull will now be 85mm instead of 30, the middle plate from 15mm to 50mm, and the upper hull and mini turrets from 30>70 and 20>90. The hull sides are now 50mm instead of 20mm, and the top turret's is now 80mm instead of 20 all around. This transforms it into a slow but better protected heavy tank, and it will be reclassed as one. In addition, it gets more guns. The F-32 will remain as one of the top guns, and it will also get the 57mm ZiS-4 gun (the same 57mm on the T-34) with the same stats but increased reload. The stock gun is the 76mm L-10 with better pen at 78/110/38. 

At Tier V, things get a bit more interesting. The SU-85 gets an interesting gun-the 122mm M-30S howitzer. It fires HE and HEAT only with 38/140 penetration and 450/310 damage. Tier V also introduces a new light tank. The A-20 will not only split into the T-34 but also the T-50-2. Imagine the gun of the Crusader, slapped onto a highly mobile chassis. That's what the T-50-2 is all about. Stock, it has the 57mm ZiS-8 gun, with 100/150/21 penetration for the standard 90/70/100 alpha damage. The top gun is the same ZiS-4 on the T-34, with similar DPM to the Crusader. The T-50-2 leads to the rest of the LT's, and the link between the T-34 and MT-25 will disappear.  The biggest change at Tier V is to the heavy tank branch. The current KV-1S will be split into two vehicles-the KV-1S at Tier V and the KV-85 at Tier VI. The stock turret, gun, and both engines and tracks will migrate down to Tier V, and a new top turret will be added. It's essentially the stock turret with a more pronounced bulge at the rear and a larger commander's cupola. It also gets two top guns. The 85mm S-31, basically the exact same gun on the KV-1, and the 122mm S-41 howitzer, with 38/140 penetration and 450/310 damage (plus an extremely long reload of ~25 seconds). The KV-85 keeps the chassis and both engines, but gets it's own tracks and 3 guns. The stock gun is the current 2nd gun on the KV-1S-the D-5T. After upgrading the turret (which looks exactly the same), it can mount either the D-2-5T (the current top gun on the KV-1S) or the 100mm S-34, with 170/210/43 penetration and 280/240/350 damage. The KV-1S and the successor KV-85 lead to the IS. Meanwhile, the KV-1 gets it's 57mm back (112/189/38 pen for 90/70/100 damage) with the usual insane RoF. The KV-2 at Tier VI is now relocated to a small mini-branch as an alternate path to the KV-3, with the T-150 returning as the primary path to the KV-3. It mounts the 76mm, 57mm, or 122mm from the KV-1 in the stock turret and the 107mm or 85mm in the top turret. Finally, the T-34/85 and T-43 can mount the 122mm U-11 from the KV-1 as a novelty option. It will be mostly useless but can provide some interesting gameplay. With that, the Soviet Tech Tree rework is completed.

 

United Kingdom

And now we come to the UK nation, which won't need as much change, thank god. Tier III TD's arrive in the Valentine AT, which has good DPM with 6-pounder armaments. The top gun will remain and the stock gun is essentially a worse version, with the same alpha of 90/70 but 105/170 penetration. Tier IV brings the main Tech Tree split, this time between the Matilda heading the heavy branch and the Covenanter leading the light/medium branch. The Covenanter will have a substantially smaller gun selection, with the current top gun remaining. The 2-pdr Mk. X with 78/121/23 penetration and 80 alpha damage similar to the Matilda (it's the same stock gun on the Matilda) will be the stock gun. In addition, the 3.7-inch AT howitzer will be added to the Alecto with 47/110/30 penetration and 260/220/370 alpha damage. Tier V brings several changes. The aforementioned howitzer will also be added to the AT 2. The Covenanter splits into the Crusader and the Sherman V. The latter will retain it's current gun but it will become the stock gun. The 76mm M1A1 will be the top gun, as will the 105mm M4-all the standard Sherman guns. However, the same 6-pounder on the Crusader will also be available, providing another interesting gameplay option. You can now snipe mid-range with the 76mm, cut your way into the enemy with the 6-pounder, or put in huge slaps with the 105. The Sherman V leads to the Firefly. At this point, no new tanks will be added but several will receive more guns. The Churchill I, Churchill VII, Cromwell, and Comet will get their old 75mm Mk. V gun back, with several changes. The penetration will now be 120/179/38, and be another option for these tanks. For the Cromwell and Comet, this gun features the most DPM, but lacks in penetration and accuracy. This is also true for the Churchill I and VII. Now, these Brits can sacrifice some penetration for some of the best DPM of their tiers. The Cromwell and Comet will also get their old 3.7-inch howitzers back, with the same damage and penetration as mentioned earlier for the Alecto and AT 2. This concludes the changes to the British Tech Tree.

 

France

Don't worry, we're almost done. Tier III TD's will, as expected, come back. This time it's the UE 57. The top gun remains and the stock gun is a 47mm with 75/55 alpha damage and 66/98 penetration. Tier IV brings a split with a new vehicle. The D2 leads not only to the B1 and the heavy lines but also a new medium tank-the SARL 42. This a well-rounded vehicle that helps you transition into the light tanks that follow it. It has 3 guns. Two are 75mm options-the first (SA32) with 74/92/38 penetration and 130/100/170 alpha damage, and the second (SA44) with 140/120/200 alpha damage and 100/129/38 penetration. There is also a fast-firing, high DPM 47mm with 106/24 penetration (only AP and HE rounds) and 85/100 alpha damage. The SAu 40, like most Tier IV TD's, will get it's old 105mm howitzer with the standard 280/240/410 damage and 53/104/38 penetration. At Tier V, no splits will occur. The S35 CA will get a different 105mm, this time a true anti-tank weapon. It has 150/203/54 penetration, very high for it's tier. It has 280/240/410 damage as well. This is compensated for a very long reload (14 seconds without provisions or equipment with 100% crew). The AMX ELC bis(cuit) gets another gun as well, this time a 90mm. With 225/190/270 alpha damage and 120/150/38 penetration, this novelty gun also has a very long reload to compensate for it's immense power. Before I part with the French Tech Tree, it should be noted that the 90mm AC DCA 45 will be added to the ARL V39, with the same penetration as the normal DCA 45 on the ARL 44. The penetration on the AC DCA 45 on the AMX AC 46 will also be increased for continuity, as well the 100mm (to 232/263). With that, I'm done with the French.

 

Before I finish this up, I'll briefly touch on the final 3 nations. China will only get an extension of the TD line with 3 vehicles at tiers III, IV, and V. The M3G FT is fast and maneuverable with either a more penetrative, DPM-oriented 57mm with 112/189 penetration and 90/70 damage, and a more damage-oriented 76mm with 140/120 alpha and 85/106 penetration. The SU-76G FT is a carbon copy of the SU-85B. The first two guns are the same as on the Tier III, but it also mounts a powerful 85mm with 170/150/210 alpha damage and 128/172/29 penetration. The final TD that seals up the branch is the 60G FT. Stock it has the same top gun as the Tier IV, but it's top gun has 200/160/250 damage and 145/220/43 penetration. Think of it as a SU-85 with a rear casemate. All 3 TD's are poorly armored.

Japan will get no changes, as I don't want to add 4 more brand-new tank destroyers into the Tech Tree. In addition, I'm not considering the Japanese heavies so currently I have no plans. For the European nation, I've decided to wait until around 4 branches are added, including 1 TD branch. Then I might revisit this thread and update it. For now, I'll let WG decide what to do with that nation and let it mature more.

 

I hope you enjoyed this very long suggestion/rework thread. Please add any suggestions, compliments, and issues you may have below. Thank you!


"I like trains. Deal with it." I mostly play Tier VII and VIII-and am 80% F2P. (I need garage slots!)

Favorite light tank:LTTB, favorite medium:M26 Pershing, favorite heavy:VK 100.01 (P), favorite tank destroyer:SU-152

     but all tanks are good if you know how to play them!

 

 


Mako__Reizei___ #2 Posted 07 November 2020 - 01:35 PM

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Just revert 5.5. You'll learn quicker what to do and what not to do by playing instead of researching and it'll bring back the uniqueness of the lower tiers. And there are also tanks in the lower tiers that in some ways are similar to the higher tier tanks as well. Players like me don't want tier 10 gameplay in the low tiers because that would just make the game stale and unfun in the long run.

Must. Have. 60%. Winrate. Under. 0.5%. Platoon. Rate!!! (30 day)

 

Maus addict, might play alt account more just to play Maus... (Nano_Virus)


daREAL_trainboi #3 Posted 07 November 2020 - 01:46 PM

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Interesting point. I at first wanted to do that but I decided that a more gradual system that slowly introduces new mechanics and vehicles is better for the player, trying to keep the current Tech Tree the same and build on top of it. Personally 5.5 should have never happened, but I'm trying to find a balance between ease of use and experience/variety, gradually training new players for tiers V/VI.

"I like trains. Deal with it." I mostly play Tier VII and VIII-and am 80% F2P. (I need garage slots!)

Favorite light tank:LTTB, favorite medium:M26 Pershing, favorite heavy:VK 100.01 (P), favorite tank destroyer:SU-152

     but all tanks are good if you know how to play them!

 

 


Mako__Reizei___ #4 Posted 07 November 2020 - 02:59 PM

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Tiers 2-4 introduce new mechanics to the player that you'll regularly encounter in the high tiers. Tiers 5-7 is when you apply those skills you picked up in the lower tiers so that you hopefully should have at least some experience when you hit tiers 8-10. After 5.5, tiers 5-6 essentially became the training grounds for new players because there is no new mechanics in tiers 1-4. Update 5.5 removed the uniqueness of low tiers which made all the tanks virtually the same. It also basically removed preparations for tiers 8-10 in the low tiers and you're now forced to learn all that stuff in tier 7-8 because there isn't enough "variety" of tanks in tiers 5-6. Sure, there's the KV-2 derp that introduces you to the power of Jagdpanzer E-100 and the 183, the T1 Heavy that introduces you to Maus levels of armor and other tanks. But there's just so few of them imo that you don't really learn the counters to them because at that tier you still progress relatively fast enough to get past through without learning much. Learning needs to be consistent throughout all tiers and I think pre 5.5 removed the learning part in tier 2-4.

Must. Have. 60%. Winrate. Under. 0.5%. Platoon. Rate!!! (30 day)

 

Maus addict, might play alt account more just to play Maus... (Nano_Virus)


daREAL_trainboi #5 Posted 07 November 2020 - 03:06 PM

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Here's my take on why I chose this system:

T1-T2:Introduction to driving, shooting, basic research, etc.

T3:Tank destroyers with different tactics, high alpha guns to be wary of.

T4: Derp cannons on tank destroyers, heavily armored vehicles (DW2, Matilda, B1, etc) with different tactics, light tanks start to separate from mediums in terms of tactics and firepower.

T5: Derp cannons on all vehicles and high alpha anti-tank guns, all tank types fully fleshed out, gameplay a lot more in depth.

From there it's around the same til T10.

 

This gradual climb throughout helps players get accustomed to the game before they will spend more time grinding and playing for longer. It's like a concrete ramp vs a concrete wall-the ramp is a bit harder than a sidewalk, but you'd rather walk up the ramp than scale the wall.


Edited by daREAL_trainboi, 07 November 2020 - 03:06 PM.

"I like trains. Deal with it." I mostly play Tier VII and VIII-and am 80% F2P. (I need garage slots!)

Favorite light tank:LTTB, favorite medium:M26 Pershing, favorite heavy:VK 100.01 (P), favorite tank destroyer:SU-152

     but all tanks are good if you know how to play them!

 

 


CatFromMars11 #6 Posted 08 November 2020 - 02:02 AM

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Maybe instead of ue57 how about fcm36pak40? It’s got a bigger gun and has attributes similar to most TDs.

Edited by CatFromMars11, 08 November 2020 - 02:06 AM.

I have converted to T-15ism

 


daREAL_trainboi #7 Posted 08 November 2020 - 02:23 AM

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I've been thinking about that but Technically it's a German vehicle. UE57 seems right to me.

"I like trains. Deal with it." I mostly play Tier VII and VIII-and am 80% F2P. (I need garage slots!)

Favorite light tank:LTTB, favorite medium:M26 Pershing, favorite heavy:VK 100.01 (P), favorite tank destroyer:SU-152

     but all tanks are good if you know how to play them!

 

 


CatFromMars11 #8 Posted 08 November 2020 - 10:54 PM

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View PostdaREAL_trainboi, on 07 November 2020 - 06:23 PM, said:

I've been thinking about that but Technically it's a German vehicle. UE57 seems right to me.


yeah, that makes sense.


I have converted to T-15ism

 


FireLordAzula #9 Posted 23 November 2020 - 04:57 AM

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I just want my enormous T82 howitzer back

daREAL_trainboi #10 Posted 27 November 2020 - 08:38 PM

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Hehe lol, I've decided that T3 howitzers should not come back for newbies, but I did add T4 derps back. Hetzer's gonna Hetz!

"I like trains. Deal with it." I mostly play Tier VII and VIII-and am 80% F2P. (I need garage slots!)

Favorite light tank:LTTB, favorite medium:M26 Pershing, favorite heavy:VK 100.01 (P), favorite tank destroyer:SU-152

     but all tanks are good if you know how to play them!

 

 


CommanderSean_2014 #11 Posted 03 January 2021 - 03:35 PM

    Yukari Ma Best Waifu

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#REVERT 5.5

  A   Proud        

  Taiwanese     

1011921428

Wg should Ban the BOTS and AFKERS PERMANTLY

 

 




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