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Now that WG is removing ATGMs, can we talk about removing the Smasher?

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_Cletus #41 Posted 17 November 2020 - 01:59 PM

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Reading this thread, I don't think it's about the Smasher....it's about balance.  People are asking for more balanced tanks.

 

As the sands flow through the hourglass, my opinion on OP tanks is changing.  Maybe, if you watch the Mandalorian, this is the way.  Possibly, WG's plan, that I've been making fun of, is to just introduce more OP tanks.  The Smasher for instance.  A few months ago the Smasher was the most hated tank.  Now, there is the Annihilator, and it's already changing the conversation about the Smasher.  Look at the Swedish lines, the new lights, American and British, there are more and more "OP" tanks now.  If you keep putting OP tanks out there, OP becomes the norm.  Maybe we can see a greater disparity between the worst tank and the best tank, but there is no longer one or two tanks that are "cancer."  As more powerful tanks are released, should the conversation go from complaining about OP tanks to asking for buffs for weak tanks?


 

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WOT_BLITZ_ #42 Posted 17 November 2020 - 02:03 PM

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View Post_Cletus, on 17 November 2020 - 08:59 AM, said:

Reading this thread, I don't think it's about the Smasher....it's about balance.  People are asking for more balanced tanks.

 

As the sands flow through the hourglass, my opinion on OP tanks is changing.  Maybe, if you watch the Mandalorian, this is the way.  Possibly, WG's plan, that I've been making fun of, is to just introduce more OP tanks.  The Smasher for instance.  A few months ago the Smasher was the most hated tank.  Now, there is the Annihilator, and it's already changing the conversation about the Smasher.  Look at the Swedish lines, the new lights, American and British, there are more and more "OP" tanks now.  If you keep putting OP tanks out there, OP becomes the norm.  Maybe we can see a greater disparity between the worst tank and the best tank, but there is no longer one or two tanks that are "cancer."  As more powerful tanks are released, should the conversation go from complaining about OP tanks to asking for buffs for weak tanks?

By the way this thread is looking that may be hitting the nail on the head... I don't think it's rather tanks are becoming more and more powerful but rather more original, older tanks are becoming weaker. WG can either nerf powerful tanks or buff underperforming tanks... Either way just something to balance everything a little bit... But not completely level the playing field... WW2 wasn't exactly what you may call fair 


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_Crusader6_ #43 Posted 17 November 2020 - 03:22 PM

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View Post_Cletus, on 17 November 2020 - 08:59 AM, said:

Reading this thread, I don't think it's about the Smasher....it's about balance.  People are asking for more balanced tanks.

 

As the sands flow through the hourglass, my opinion on OP tanks is changing.  Maybe, if you watch the Mandalorian, this is the way.  Possibly, WG's plan, that I've been making fun of, is to just introduce more OP tanks.  The Smasher for instance.  A few months ago the Smasher was the most hated tank.  Now, there is the Annihilator, and it's already changing the conversation about the Smasher.  Look at the Swedish lines, the new lights, American and British, there are more and more "OP" tanks now.  If you keep putting OP tanks out there, OP becomes the norm.  Maybe we can see a greater disparity between the worst tank and the best tank, but there is no longer one or two tanks that are "cancer."  As more powerful tanks are released, should the conversation go from complaining about OP tanks to asking for buffs for weak tanks?


When you look at actual player data the Swedish are not over cooked, even the Emil I isn’t over performing significantly.  The issue with the Emil I is a lot of good (and better than good) players are spamming it.   
  Same goes for the Vickers CR.   
The Emil 2 and Kranvagn actually under perform based on Jylpah’s data.  
 

Going back to the AMX 50 B knee jerk nerf and T49 early nerf, those tanks where not over performing, the issue was in toons of good players they end battles very early as they can be brutal when focusing.   Same issue occurs now in the Emil I, as two can clip out many same tier tanks and higher tier meds in one clip when they focus. 
 

That is simply a function of good teamwork.   
 

As far as tanks that are significantly over performing, the Chimera and T54E2 are great examples - but no one seems to be yelling about needing them nerf’d.  
 


 

To me the Smasher Or Annihilator aren’t really concerns even if I’m playing a tier 6, simply because I know 99% of the time, I can simply outplay them and farm them.  
 

I’d rather play several tier 7 tech tree tanks (T29, Tiger I, or Panther I) than those two, as I can outperform in those.  
 

  
I’m not disagreeing that the Annihilator or Smasher aren’t overcooked, they are, but I will also say that a better player in a ‘lesser’ tank can beat a lesser player in an ‘OP’ tank.   They both have significant disadvantages, and most players are aware of the Smasher’s weaknesses by now (unless they live under a rock) and the Annihilator’s weakness will be exploited more as players grow more knowledgeable about them.   
 

Tier 7 has been a balance wreck for a long time, and I don’t expect any short term changes.   
 


    

 

 

 


 

 
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Johny_Drifter #44 Posted 17 November 2020 - 03:37 PM

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I agree with Oricam1 above. I have no issues with any tanks in the game. I don't have a Smasher but they don't effect my gameplay much. They are slow to maneuver and slow to reload. Simply adjust your tactics and avoid that nasty hit.

Never had a Sheridan and never had issues with Sheridan ATGM's either. I have only been hit a few times by missiles and it did not effect the game much. I just needed to adjust my tactics to avoid missile strikes.

 



_Cletus #45 Posted 17 November 2020 - 03:42 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 17 November 2020 - 09:22 AM, said:


When you look at actual player data the Swedish are not over cooked, even the Emil I isn’t over performing significantly.  The issue with the Emil I is a lot of good (and better than good) players are spamming it.   
  Same goes for the Vickers CR.   
The Emil 2 and Kranvagn actually under perform based on Jylpah’s data.  
 

Going back to the AMX 50 B knee jerk nerf and T49 early nerf, those tanks where not over performing, the issue was in toons of good players they end battles very early as they can be brutal when focusing.   Same issue occurs now in the Emil I, as two can clip out many same tier tanks and higher tier meds in one clip when they focus. 
 

That is simply a function of good teamwork.   
 

As far as tanks that are significantly over performing, the Chimera and T54E2 are great examples - but no one seems to be yelling about needing them nerf’d.  
 


 

To me the Smasher Or Annihilator aren’t really concerns even if I’m playing a tier 6, simply because I know 99% of the time, I can simply outplay them and farm them.  
 

I’d rather play several tier 7 tech tree tanks (T29, Tiger I, or Panther I) than those two, as I can outperform in those.  
 

  
I’m not disagreeing that the Annihilator or Smasher aren’t overcooked, they are, but I will also say that a better player in a ‘lesser’ tank can beat a lesser player in an ‘OP’ tank.   They both have significant disadvantages, and most players are aware of the Smasher’s weaknesses by now (unless they live under a rock) and the Annihilator’s weakness will be exploited more as players grow more knowledgeable about them.   
 

Tier 7 has been a balance wreck for a long time, and I don’t expect any short term changes.   
 


 

 

I think that just reinforces my point.  Looking at stats for the Emil it doesn't look OP, but it's in the hands of the general playerbase right now, they are bringing it down from the initial high it got from experienced players free xp'ing it first.  But you can't say it's not super powerful, especially in a toon.  It's arguably OP.  In the same tier you have the Chimera, 252u, T54E2, Def Mark I, CAX, WZ fake tank, Prog 46, WZ-112-2, E75TS, and the Sheriff, all of which could be argued are OP.  That's 11 tanks, and you could argue their OPness on a case by case basis, for sure, but that's still 11 really strong tier 8 tanks.  Do they all need to be nerfed?  Or should we start focusing on the crappiest tanks in the tier, bringing them up to snuff with all of the aforementioned OP tanks?  

 

I'm not sure that we do need to buff a bunch of tanks, but I'm beginning to see that when everything is OP, then OP doesn't mean much anymore.

 

And that's just tier 8.  I could easily, maybe more easily, do the same thing for tier 7.  I don't play enough tier X to really comment, but I would say that the multiple OP tanks idea could apply to 6, 7, and 8 pretty easily.  Tier 9 seems to be a lot closer to balanced than anything else, and I don't play 1-4.  Still, I just think we're at the point where nerfing OP tanks will start to be counterproductive.


 

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Johny_Drifter #46 Posted 17 November 2020 - 03:51 PM

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_Cletus nailed it.

j_rod #47 Posted 17 November 2020 - 03:58 PM

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View Post_Cletus, on 17 November 2020 - 09:42 AM, said:

 

I think that just reinforces my point.  Looking at stats for the Emil it doesn't look OP, but it's in the hands of the general playerbase right now, they are bringing it down from the initial high it got from experienced players free xp'ing it first.  But you can't say it's not super powerful, especially in a toon.  It's arguably OP.  In the same tier you have the Chimera, 252u, T54E2, Def Mark I, CAX, WZ fake tank, Prog 46, WZ-112-2, E75TS, and the Sheriff, all of which could be argued are OP.  That's 11 tanks, and you could argue their OPness on a case by case basis, for sure, but that's still 11 really strong tier 8 tanks.  Do they all need to be nerfed?  Or should we start focusing on the crappiest tanks in the tier, bringing them up to snuff with all of the aforementioned OP tanks?  

 

I'm not sure that we do need to buff a bunch of tanks, but I'm beginning to see that when everything is OP, then OP doesn't mean much anymore.

 

And that's just tier 8.  I could easily, maybe more easily, do the same thing for tier 7.  I don't play enough tier X to really comment, but I would say that the multiple OP tanks idea could apply to 6, 7, and 8 pretty easily.  Tier 9 seems to be a lot closer to balanced than anything else, and I don't play 1-4.  Still, I just think we're at the point where nerfing OP tanks will start to be counterproductive.

 

I agree with this 100% Cletus. Part of WG's model appears to be releasing "OP" tanks to drive sales....some being more OP than others. I'd also suggest that any new tank with decent stats is going to be called OP until people learn to counter the tank. To your point though, OP is really a misnomer when it's applied to half the tanks in game. 

 

Here's a list of tier 7 tanks that have been OP at one time or another -

 

Tiger I

Tiger (P)

T-34-1

Drac

Helsing

Lycan

Smasher

Vindicator

Comet (yes, back in the day the Comet was considered OP)

T29

Tankenstein (seriously...go back and read the comments from the first Halloween event)

Chi-To SPG (still the most OP tank in tier IMHO)

Lupus

Type 62

Black Prince (who remembers when it received that DPM/pen buff and we saw numerous uni-toons?)


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LtRaseiniai #48 Posted 17 November 2020 - 04:12 PM

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View PostRibbleStripe, on 17 November 2020 - 04:49 AM, said:

 

According to this logic we have to remove KV-2, SU-152, Death Star. After that - autoloaders and autoreloaders. And make all the tanks completely equal at the end. Just like in Battle city. Or what was the name of that NES tanks game?

 

We are removing a new mechanics a part of community didn’t and won’t accept. It’s a completely different case. 

 

 

Not that long ago you guys made a big production out of removing all the derp guns in tier five and below.

You said this was done because it was ruining the game experience of players to get wiped out so easily.

And yet the derp guns in tier six and above profliferate.

 

You guys were right in the first place.

It ruins the game experience to get wiped out by these derp guns.

 



Dolly_Sod #49 Posted 17 November 2020 - 04:47 PM

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View PostRibbleStripe, on 17 November 2020 - 05:49 AM, said:

 

According to this logic we have to remove KV-2, SU-152, Death Star. After that - autoloaders and autoreloaders. And make all the tanks completely equal at the end. Just like in Battle city. Or what was the name of that NES tanks game?

 

We are removing a new mechanics a part of community didn’t and won’t accept. It’s a completely different case. 

 

 

Ok Ok, I'm with you on this.  

 

If we aren't going to remove the Smasher and the Annihilator, can we at least remove the troll players who regularly block their team and are repeatedly reported with seemingly no ramifications? 



Walsquid #50 Posted 17 November 2020 - 04:52 PM

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View PostdaREAL_trainboi, on 15 November 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:

I think the real fantasy tanks (Halloween, Mad Games, etc) should get the same treatment as the blue Sheridan. However, vehicles such as the Strv 74A2, M4 FL10, the GuP tanks, etc. should stay in random battles as they technically are real tanks.

 

I'm just sick of seeing at least 1 Smasher and/or Annihilator on my team every game. It's so annoying, and I'm sick of them flooding the random queue.


For one, The m4/Fl10 was an actual real tank, not just on blueprints. It served in the Egyptian military as a standard tank unit. The only problem was that the European tech tree had not yet been released, so they couldn't put it in that.


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Destroy0 #51 Posted 17 November 2020 - 05:16 PM

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Don't remove the Smasher, just nerf it a bit. Wasn't that the whole point of the Collector vehicle status? Or am I missing something?

Edited by Destroy0, 17 November 2020 - 05:17 PM.


Walsquid #52 Posted 17 November 2020 - 05:17 PM

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View PostWOT_BLITZ_, on 17 November 2020 - 08:03 AM, said:

By the way this thread is looking that may be hitting the nail on the head... I don't think it's rather tanks are becoming more and more powerful but rather more original, older tanks are becoming weaker. WG can either nerf powerful tanks or buff underperforming tanks... Either way just something to balance everything a little bit... But not completely level the playing field... WW2 wasn't exactly what you may call fair 


If that's the case, let's extremely buff the tiger 2's armor and gun, because it was "never knocked out by an enemy tank, only by transmission issues and aircraft strikes" so it becomes the almighty ruler of tier 8 :)

Next up, severely buffing anything used after1940-1950 to make the game more realistic in its "strengths" ;)

Just kidding this is a horrible idea


Edited by Walsquid, 17 November 2020 - 05:20 PM.

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j_rod #53 Posted 17 November 2020 - 05:20 PM

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View PostWalsquid, on 17 November 2020 - 11:17 AM, said:


If that's the case, let's extremely buff the tiger 2's armor and gun, because it was "never knocked out by an enemy tank, only by transmission issues and aircraft strikes" so it becomes the almighty ruler of tier 8 :)

Next up, severely nerfing anything not used during 1940-1950 :)

Just kidding this is a horrible idea

 

I'm not sure I trust the opinions of a guy with a Sturmtiger as his profile picture... :)


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generalhonks #54 Posted 17 November 2020 - 06:22 PM

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The problem I’m noticing is that WG likes to buff all the tanks to match the power of a strong line, hence the heavy hp buffs, instead of nerfing all the tanks to match the weakest lines.

 

No, I’m not defending German technical superiority, I’m stating the ****ing obvious!

 

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tanker070 #55 Posted 17 November 2020 - 06:24 PM

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View PostRibbleStripe, on 17 November 2020 - 04:49 AM, said:

According to this logic we have to remove KV-2, SU-152, Death Star. After that - autoloaders and autoreloaders. And make all the tanks completely equal at the end. Just like in Battle city. Or what was the name of that NES tanks game?

 

We are removing a new mechanics a part of community didn’t and won’t accept. It’s a completely different case. 

 

Majority of players waited for this decision to come 2 months after Sheridan was released.  Finally, the decision makers finally took the decision to keep Blitz a tank game not a missile game. So thank you

And... While we dream further of good decisions

 

I would appreciate if Annihilator/Smasher are the last OP tanks introduced in a pool of OP premiums.   instead of removing some OP tanks, how about the radical idea of not introducing them

Not only degrading the battle experience but it infects us with "only if i had that Op tank, i would win more"

 

Instead of fixing past mistakes, how about Dev team learn from them...

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twirlingtowardsfreedom #56 Posted 17 November 2020 - 06:59 PM

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Game enjoyment - and its obviously linked companion, gameplay time - are the real key to whether the Smasher/Annihilator should get smushed, and if similar tanks should not be introduced. 

 

To me, I enjoy the game far less when the diversity of tanks in random battles is lessened. I like to see all the weirdos in the lineup, and enjoy adapting to different battle makeups every time I play. Getting a Smasher in every darn 6-8 battle, or an Annhilator, is immensely tiring and boring. There will always be some of this due to people grinding newly introduced lines - but it doesn't last nearly as long as the above tanks have and will.

 

But the reasons I enjoy the game are not the same for everyone. And it is entirely possible that a far greater chunk of WG's customerbase wants to spam brainless tanks over and over, day after day, and that WG is actually making a smart consumer decision to keep inventing them and promoting their use. I would love to see their metrics on this, but it is their business, not mine.



WOT_BLITZ_ #57 Posted 17 November 2020 - 08:57 PM

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View PostWalsquid, on 17 November 2020 - 12:17 PM, said:


If that's the case, let's extremely buff the tiger 2's armor and gun, because it was "never knocked out by an enemy tank, only by transmission issues and aircraft strikes" so it becomes the almighty ruler of tier 8 :)

Next up, severely buffing anything used after1940-1950 to make the game more realistic in its "strengths" ;)

Just kidding this is a horrible idea

Let me re phrase what I said. What I meant with WW2 wasn't exactly what some would call fair is that we shouldn't buff/nerf every tank into oblivion until we have nothing but stale battle with the same thing over and over again... If we completely leveled the playing field nothing would be fun anymore... A huge chunk of RNG would cease to exist as then everything basically handles the same. Some tank have to be better but not to the point where every time you are in battle against one you have to tunnel it with the full force of your team to take it out... That just defeats the purpose... Tank brawls shouldn't, in a lot of cases, be and undeniable loss for one in specific. Balance them to the point where it is fun... But if you brawl with a Smasher in an M41 Bulldog then don't cry about it being OP when it's poor judgement on your part. I'm not saying super buff "obsolete" tanks and I'm not saying nerf "OP" tanks either... What I'm saying is just a little bit more balance so it's fun for everyone and not just one person.


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acrisis #58 Posted 17 November 2020 - 10:58 PM

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Just in case “ you guys “ is supposed to include me ...

 

I don’t think I could have been more vocal in my disapproval of update 3.8 and 5.5 and tanks ATGMs.

... without getting banned and/or burning bridges. 


 

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_Crusader6_ #59 Posted 17 November 2020 - 11:40 PM

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View PostWOT_BLITZ_, on 17 November 2020 - 03:57 PM, said:

Let me re phrase what I said. What I meant with WW2 wasn't exactly what some would call fair is that we shouldn't buff/nerf every tank into oblivion until we have nothing but stale battle with the same thing over and over again... If we completely leveled the playing field nothing would be fun anymore... A huge chunk of RNG would cease to exist as then everything basically handles the same. Some tank have to be better but not to the point where every time you are in battle against one you have to tunnel it with the full force of your team to take it out... That just defeats the purpose... Tank brawls shouldn't, in a lot of cases, be and undeniable loss for one in specific. Balance them to the point where it is fun... But if you brawl with a Smasher in an M41 Bulldog then don't cry about it being OP when it's poor judgement on your part. I'm not saying super buff "obsolete" tanks and I'm not saying nerf "OP" tanks either... What I'm saying is just a little bit more balance so it's fun for everyone and not just one person.


I think a big problem with many is that they do not understand that Balance does not mean the same.

 

Balance simply means that for a given segment of the player base that a tanks advantages are somewhat limited by its disadvantages.

 

 

Also broken doesn't necessitate it being OP, broken just means it doesn't fit, the 183 is a prime example of a broken tank -- even in its current state it being able to HESH a target for 1300+ HP is not balanced, and due to that ability of being able to potentially land that shot you get a slew of folks out running it A LOT.

 

  The Smasher IMHO is Broken, simply due to its HE and HEAT pen, when combined with the fact it's got a turret.   The Annihilator is broken due to the DPM, its mobility with the OP Speed boost, and the fact the third round Burst often lands all three shots, I mean we Meme'd a tier 8 tournament last night in Annihilators and beat a team of E75 TS and Obj 252U, that's a little silly.   

 

The Smasher HE pen and HEAT pen should get dialed back - and the Annihilator probably would have its subsequent shot dispersion opened as well as the OP Speed boost removed.

 

 

     


 

 
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boris55555 #60 Posted 17 November 2020 - 11:47 PM

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View Posttankeatingtiger, on 15 November 2020 - 09:54 AM, said:

Realistic mode is your solution.

Which includes blue sherry?

View Postacrisis, on 17 November 2020 - 05:58 PM, said:

Just in case “ you guys “ is supposed to include me ...

 

I don’t think I could have been more vocal in my disapproval of update 3.8 and 5.5 and tanks ATGMs.

... without getting banned and/or burning bridges. 

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