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Yup. Caps in supremacy are useless

supremacy caps are useless

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Posit1ve_ #1 Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:28 PM

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So this post is more or less a response to this thread here: http://forum.wotblit...29#entry1755729

 

But it's just as the title says. Supremacy caps are useless. I decided to play some games in my 113 to test exactly how useless though. And welp, as it turns out, they're even more useless than I originally thought

 

So I played 61 games in the 113. In those 61 games, only 5 total games were won by a team reaching 1000 points. Yeah.... only 5.... of 61.... Literally every other game was won by one team destroying all 7 tanks on the other team.

 

And of those 5 games won by supremacy caps, only 2 were won by the team that was losing. The other 3 were won by the team that was winning the fight (and in all 3 cases, winning by so much that they would have won regardless unless multiple tanks drowned or got racked). 


Also, of those 5 games that were won by supremacy caps, 2 of them were on Middleburg... (just another reason why Middleburg needs to be removed from the game).

 

Another piece of data: I also kept track of the games where a team captured 2 supremacy caps. And of those instances (of which there were 15), the team with 2 supremacy caps lost 13 of those times.... 

 

 

 

Now this may run counter to how many may think that you're "supposed" to play supremacy. But the raw facts are here. Capping supremacy caps is counter-productive to winning. Most of the time, trying to win on supremacy caps simply puts guns out of the fight for too long, or leads you into terrible places just to get that second cap. 

 

So do your teams a favor. Forget about the flippin' caps. Put your gun in the game. Put it in a good spot. Just do anything other than capping when the battle is being decided

 

A few rebuttals

 


Edited by Posit1ve_, 12 February 2021 - 10:38 PM.

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Gojira1150 #2 Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:39 PM

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They can be fairly useless or they can be fairly useful. Only twice in my career have I won a 3v1, and in both cases it was because my last teammate died but I won off of Supremacy points by hiding somewhere. So, so long as you have a team that can survive long enough to allow the points to be racked up, but also a  team unable to kill the other team, winning by points can and will happen

Kiwi_Kebab #3 Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:41 PM

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I cap defensively more often than offensively. That is, I will flip caps controlled by Red if I think we need more time. 

 

I will again bring up Vineyards as a map that can be won with good cap and map control. Specifically, being to hold both A and B. I agree that caps are often not needed in general.

 

Middleburg just needs supremacy reworked or removed. I enjoy it in Encounter matches for the most part. 


Edited by Kiwi_Kebab, 12 February 2021 - 10:43 PM.

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Posit1ve_ #4 Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:41 PM

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View PostGojira1150, on 12 February 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

They can be fairly useless or they can be fairly useful. Only twice in my career have I won a 3v1, and in both cases it was because my last teammate died but I won off of Supremacy points by hiding somewhere. So, so long as you have a team that can survive long enough to allow the points to be racked up, but also a  team unable to kill the other team, winning by points can and will happen

I never said that winning by supremacy points was impossible. In fact, it did happen.

 

It's just that it only rarely happens. That's the crux here. Anyone can imagine or remember a scenario where you win by caps, its just that such scenarios are so incredibly rare, that they're not worth considering, nor are they worth playing for


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Gojira1150 #5 Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:46 PM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 12 February 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

I never said that winning by supremacy points was impossible. In fact, it did happen.

 

It's just that it only rarely happens. That's the crux here. Anyone can imagine or remember a scenario where you win by caps, its just that such scenarios are so incredibly rare, that they're not worth considering, nor are they worth playing for

true, I just have always seen the value in getting a Supremacy points and cap advantage for pressure during the mid and late game in order to make the other team panic somewhat and make mistakes



Kiwi_Kebab #6 Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:49 PM

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In addition, did you keep track of the event that supremacy points exceeded 800 for one or both teams? While the points may not reach 1000, the tune of 800+ can impact player behavior in certain cases. The impact of player reaction to the potential of losing by capture points may be nontrivial, though harder to gauge by an empirical metric.

 

I appreciate your data though and agree with your resonable bounds.


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LtRaseiniai #7 Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:59 PM

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Had an Emil2 that went to the A cap hill on Rockfield and had it all to himself for six minutes, while he abused us for dying ... never bothered to grab the cap.

If red gives you a cap you should take it.

If you have a fast tank ... you should b grabbing a cap or two.

I agree that the number one thing to do is fight.   But you can win some games by capping, and if red is just giving them to you, you should take tem.



j_rod #8 Posted 12 February 2021 - 11:12 PM

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View PostGojira1150, on 12 February 2021 - 04:46 PM, said:

true, I just have always seen the value in getting a Supremacy points and cap advantage for pressure during the mid and late game in order to make the other team panic somewhat and make mistakes


This is actually a good point. Cap pressure on the form of a team with a point advantage can cause the other team to make mistakes or push when they shouldn’t.

 

Pos - I know it’s not really quantifiable and I agree with you that damage output > caps, but wouldn’t you agree that there are situations beyond the wins/losses by cap where a team lost bc they had to push on the team with the cap advantage?


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War_Vet_1 #9 Posted 12 February 2021 - 11:31 PM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 13 February 2021 - 08:28 AM, said:

So this post is more or less a response to this thread here: http://forum.wotblit...29#entry1755729

 

But it's just as the title says. Supremacy caps are useless. I decided to play some games in my 113 to test exactly how useless though. And welp, as it turns out, they're even more useless than I originally thought

 

So I played 61 games in the 113. In those 61 games, only 5 total games were won by a team reaching 1000 points. Yeah.... only 5.... of 61.... Literally every other game was won by one team destroying all 7 tanks on the other team.

 

And of those 5 games won by supremacy caps, only 2 were won by the team that was losing. The other 3 were won by the team that was winning the fight (and in all 3 cases, winning by so much that they would have won regardless unless multiple tanks drowned or got racked). 


Also, of those 5 games that were won by supremacy caps, 2 of them were on Middleburg... (just another reason why Middleburg needs to be removed from the game).

 

Another piece of data: I also kept track of the games where a team captured 2 supremacy caps. And of those instances (of which there were 15), the team with 2 supremacy caps lost 13 of those times.... 

 

 

 

Now this may run counter to how many may think that you're "supposed" to play supremacy. But the raw facts are here. Capping supremacy caps is counter-productive to winning. Most of the time, trying to win on supremacy caps simply puts guns out of the fight for too long, or leads you into terrible places just to get that second cap. 

 

So do your teams a favor. Forget about the flippin' caps. Put your gun in the game. Put it in a good spot. Just do anything other than capping when the battle is being decided

 

A few rebuttals

 

 

I commend you for actually doing this in the name of research and bringing those results to us on the forums. +1! Another reason why I keep Supremacy turned off. I wonder when the "Woke" crowd is going to after WG for naming this game mode "Supremacy". LOL.



LordDumptruck #10 Posted 13 February 2021 - 12:02 AM

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Another weird map for supremacy points pressure is Oasis Palms. If the majority of one team goes out to c cap and tries the long range hulldown game while the other team’s majority strikes out for a and b and turtles, I have seen a fair number of games where at 700-800 cap points the c cap team starts pushing into town in ones and twos while their team mates hang back, and can get to a win on cap points with the extra kills and the remainder of the c cap team not moving enough. 
It is my perception that points based wins occur more commonly on Oasis Palms as compared to random maps. 

Gojira1150 #11 Posted 13 February 2021 - 01:01 AM

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View Postj_rod, on 12 February 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:


This is actually a good point. Cap pressure on the form of a team with a point advantage can cause the other team to make mistakes or push when they shouldn’t.

 

Pos - I know it’s not really quantifiable and I agree with you that damage output > caps, but wouldn’t you agree that there are situations beyond the wins/losses by cap where a team lost bc they had to push on the team with the cap advantage?

when I'm in a tank like the T95 on Yamato Harbor, I like to take A, because then I can fire over into the Med area where most people go, and don't waste time heading over there. The limited angles of attack when on the ship also mean that I can keep my front towards the enemies more easily. If the enemy is a no show and I'm not getting good shots, I'll push towards B, and then my team will likely be up two caps to zero, which makes the enemies panic often and try and cap C or waste time moving from over by C to go cap A or B. Once I have B, I'll turn and defend it while also moving over to push the enemies meds as I, in my slow tank, have taken two cap points on my way over, contributing to my team during the drive instead of being useless for about 20 seconds, I am out of battle for around a minute, but am putting pressure on the foe. Of course, this has backfired on me occasionally, including to me one of my prouder moments, where I got a 0 damage game because my team folded over by C and I was stuck at B with a Vickers and an Object I forget the number Tank Destroyer near me. I proceeded to hold them off for around 45 seconds without managing to get a shot in, the whole time bouncing shots and just generally holding B until finally the Vickers managed to hit my Cupola enough to kill me



Mako__Reizei___ #12 Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:28 AM

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I do find caps useful though. Greatly higher cap lead tends to put a lot of pressure on the opposing team and may lead to enemies making more mistakes, not to mention that there might be an off chance that you can only run and hope that your cap is higher than the reds by the time the match is done.

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_Crusader6_ #13 Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:47 AM

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 Caps are a means to an end, not the only means. 
 

Better players can manufacture most points with damage and kills.
   The better the player, the less they need to rely on cap points. 

 
  I rarely see Supremacy games coming down to cap point wins, but I do try to ensure my team isn’t down significantly on cap points (either by capping early on some maps) or farming reds who try to cap. 
  
I notice a lot of teams when down cap points tend to either vapor lock and not doing anything, or yolo caps and lose due to not understanding the loss of a tank (or three) can be very dramatic to ones points too.  
 

 

 


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DontGiveABleep #14 Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:47 AM

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Agree and disagree.  Points made by others that the pressure put on the opposition by the fact that cap points are getting close for a win does factor into games won/lost quite often.  

The main thing I dislike about supremacy is the vast amount of clueless players that don’t understand the concept, or can’t logically think how to use supremacy properly to make it an advantageous tool towards a win.  Whether you win by cap points or not, it can, will, and does have an affect on how the battles are played out.  

_Crusader6_ #15 Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:48 AM

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View PostGojira1150, on 12 February 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

when I'm in a tank like the T95 on Yamato Harbor, I like to take A, because then I can fire over into the Med area where most people go, and don't waste time heading over there. The limited angles of attack when on the ship also mean that I can keep my front towards the enemies more easily. If the enemy is a no show and I'm not getting good shots, I'll push towards B, and then my team will likely be up two caps to zero, which makes the enemies panic often and try and cap C or waste time moving from over by C to go cap A or B. Once I have B, I'll turn and defend it while also moving over to push the enemies meds as I, in my slow tank, have taken two cap points on my way over, contributing to my team during the drive instead of being useless for about 20 seconds, I am out of battle for around a minute, but am putting pressure on the foe. Of course, this has backfired on me occasionally, including to me one of my prouder moments, where I got a 0 damage game because my team folded over by C and I was stuck at B with a Vickers and an Object I forget the number Tank Destroyer near me. I proceeded to hold them off for around 45 seconds without managing to get a shot in, the whole time bouncing shots and just generally holding B until finally the Vickers managed to hit my Cupola enough to kill me


A is a muppet play on higher tiers, doubly so in a T95 Your gun is out of the fight for well over a minute. 
   A competent red will notice the lack of TD support and ruin your team while you went to lunch.  
 

 


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Gojira1150 #16 Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:57 AM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 12 February 2021 - 08:48 PM, said:


A is a muppet play on higher tiers, doubly so in a T95 Your gun is out of the fight for well over a minute. 
   A competent red will notice the lack of TD support and ruin your team while you went to lunch.  
 

 

I've noticed I'm out of play for a while either way, and I catch a few people trying to flank often as well, to be honest I am one of the resident noobs on this forum, I'll try not going A next time I get Yamato Harbor on Supremacy in my T95



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View PostGojira1150, on 12 February 2021 - 09:57 PM, said:

I've noticed I'm out of play for a while either way, and I catch a few people trying to flank often as well, to be honest I am one of the resident noobs on this forum, I'll try not going A next time I get Yamato Harbor on Supremacy in my T95

You’ve got super speed boost now - it can boost to the bush and use its armor to deny the red TD bush/building/rock on the perches and push toward the B cap if needed.  
 
9/10 times the fight is decided at C and any leftovers are cleaned up afterwards.  

 

Also an isolated T95 is simply food for a decent med/light in a 9/10 match.   


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__V_O_P__ #18 Posted 13 February 2021 - 03:17 AM

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caps make different parts of the map more or less important relative to regular battles. it's way too simplistic to say that that they are useless [w t f are you smoking?] did you do the same experiment for normal battles and declare the cap circle irrelevant as well? you didn't... oh... okay... should we guess what the outcome was? I think (to around 99.9% confidence) that most games the team that killed ALL the other team won. Cap circle is useless. I rest my case your honor.... smh... ya see what I did there?

Posit1ve_ #19 Posted 13 February 2021 - 03:33 AM

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View Postj_rod, on 12 February 2021 - 06:12 PM, said:


This is actually a good point. Cap pressure on the form of a team with a point advantage can cause the other team to make mistakes or push when they shouldn’t.

 

Pos - I know it’s not really quantifiable and I agree with you that damage output > caps, but wouldn’t you agree that there are situations beyond the wins/losses by cap where a team lost bc they had to push on the team with the cap advantage?

Of course there are scenarios where a team loses because they are forced to push, especially in comp, but in pubs, this is rarely the case, as players are usually completely oblivious to potential cap pressure.

 

Most of the time, the game is decided long before cap pressure becomes a reality, as pub teams don't usually just sit and hold the second they have a cap advantage, they'll peek, or continue to extend, bleeding HP, and/or get pressured into fights by flanks, etc...

 

In this 61 game sample, there is only one time I can think of where cap pressure helped lead to a win, and it was one of the 5 games that did end up being won on cap points. And it was on Middleburg. Basically the town team got 2 caps fairly quick, and then the hill team bled a ton of HP making bad peeks somehow, and then pushed in and died as the cap pressure mounted.

 

Other than that, in essentially all the other games I played, cap pressure was not a significant factor, as in order to reach a point where it does become an issue, one team has to take 2 caps pretty quickly (often ending in their demise)


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__V_O_P__ #20 Posted 13 February 2021 - 03:33 AM

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Here's an experiment someone can do... I don't seem to be able to access the heat maps for supremacy and regular. if the heat maps for BOTH game types are the same... then perhaps both game types play out the same and then there's no different between how players play regular and supremacy... can someone have a look? are they different? if so... then the caps are not useless... are they the same? in which case they are!

 







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