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Yup. Caps in supremacy are useless

supremacy caps are useless

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Posit1ve_ #21 Posted 13 February 2021 - 03:35 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 12 February 2021 - 10:17 PM, said:

caps make different parts of the map more or less important relative to regular battles. it's way too simplistic to say that that they are useless [w t f are you smoking?] did you do the same experiment for normal battles and declare the cap circle irrelevant as well? you didn't... oh... okay... should we guess what the outcome was? I think (to around 99.9% confidence) that most games the team that killed ALL the other team won. Cap circle is useless. I rest my case your honor.... smh... ya see what I did there?

I mean, yeah, encounter cap is pretty useless in encounter battles. People literally play as if it doesn't exist. The only time it ever gets used is at the very end if it's just like one light tank on the other team running around in like a 1v2 or something..

 

No one ever plays around encounter cap being a major factor like they do with supremacy caps.


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Posit1ve_ #22 Posted 13 February 2021 - 03:36 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 12 February 2021 - 10:33 PM, said:

Here's an experiment someone can do... I don't seem to be able to access the heat maps for supremacy and regular. if the heat maps for BOTH game types are the same... then perhaps both game types play out the same and then there's no different between how players play regular and supremacy... can someone have a look? are they different? if so... then the caps are not useless... are they the same? in which case they are!

 

The heatmaps are different, but that doesn't mean supremacy caps are influential, it just means there's more morons who just think that they are. Just because they change player behavior doesn't mean that they're useful.


Edited by Posit1ve_, 13 February 2021 - 03:36 AM.

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Gavidoc01 #23 Posted 13 February 2021 - 04:56 AM

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Caps are an element to a win but I agree they are not the primary way to win. 
 

also if red has 2 caps and your team hasn’t slowed the timer before it hits 850 and you don’t kill anyone to gain back 40 points after 850 you loose. 


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Vacazion #24 Posted 13 February 2021 - 05:34 AM

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Couldn’t agree more.   Yeah Vineyards cap your spawn base and maybe Normandy.  Caps should be taken as an afterthought of pushing and putting your gun into battle.  For example, if you push the river in Mayan ruins and control the river.  Cap while you reload or reset camo.  I mean how many Supremacy games do you lose when you go down 2 caps but up 2 or 3 tanks?  And if a top tier heavy doesn’t go meta because they want to hit up an out of the way cap, always bad news.  
 

There’s always exceptions.   Good player can force early caps for win pressure even if ends up in kill win.  If everybody stays in hills in Vineyards running a fast light into town for the C cap is shrewd.  Or a fast light getting the B cap on Canyons.  Those are rare cases.   If they are small maps, capping should be the last thing on your mind.  Spitting up on Himmelsdorf for caps seems pointless.   Dynasty Pearl too.  


 

 


Morphman11 #25 Posted 13 February 2021 - 05:52 AM

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Making statistical claims without a proper sample size is useless. Just like my sample of 10 supremacy games in a row where the points reached 1000. Useless. Yawn. Next.
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tedg5 #26 Posted 13 February 2021 - 01:17 PM

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I would generally agree with OP if it was added to his hypothesis “at tier 10”. At the others caps tend to be more of a factor, due to team being more of “releasing feral cats in yard” type of deal. :playing:

Rou_Garou #27 Posted 13 February 2021 - 01:31 PM

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Caps are handy when you are in an autoloader and need to relocate while reloading. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone you might say.

I'm normally one to go for caps but I can definitely see the advantage when there is a strong push.  If your team is dying in the first 2 minutes a cap will not save the day.


 

 

                                                                        


minitel_NA #28 Posted 13 February 2021 - 01:38 PM

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positive, even acknowledging that you are a superior warrior to me by far, I, for once, disagree with you.

 

caps in spremacy are useless because teams have no clue how to play caps, and that’s partly because teams are simply useless and partly because caps in normal games are useless. Therefore no one ever thinks about them. The base player is a Trigger happy airhead. Not necessarily a guy with a taste for analysis and patient planning of actions, which calling requires.

 

Give me 2 teammates with a brain and we can cap sup games to victory in more than half of them. The rest to be won by punching holes the regular way. Depending on maps of course. 
 

ill give just an exemple. How many malinovka sup games have I seen where enemy goes lake and we cap the two top bases, only to have my teammates go out trying to attack the lake one by one by driving in the open or circling into the lake, giving up one side of the defense? 
 

Once they are all dead, red team wins by 7kills. it doesn’t make capping a bad choice. It just means driving in the open when you have the advantage a really ugly stupid move. 
 

you can replace Malinovka with a bunch of other names. The reasoning still holds.

 

only then, as a result, you can’t trust caps to win because you can’t trust your teammates to defend them or even live long enough to reach 1000.


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__V_O_P__ #29 Posted 13 February 2021 - 01:44 PM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 13 February 2021 - 03:36 AM, said:

The heatmaps are different, but that doesn't mean supremacy caps are influential, it just means there's more morons who just think that they are. Just because they change player behavior doesn't mean that they're useful.

 

 

View PostPosit1ve_, on 13 February 2021 - 03:35 AM, said:

I mean, yeah, encounter cap is pretty useless in encounter battles. People literally play as if it doesn't exist. The only time it ever gets used is at the very end if it's just like one light tank on the other team running around in like a 1v2 or something..

 

No one ever plays around encounter cap being a major factor like they do with supremacy caps.


I don't want you to think I'm telling you how you play... you might find caps useless in supremacy, I don't. they are a tool for changing the behavior of red team. that's one reason why you can't measure the utility of caps by how the battle was won - example, canal, supremacy, 2 v 1, 2 caps each, everyone's a one shot, I'm just behind on points. I have to look for a kill. I get it. now the other guy has to do something. I watch the only logical cap he can get to and the points timer clicks on, and there he appears. I kill him. by your reckoning caps didn't play any part in that.

 

also on canal if I'm in a heavy toon I sometimes use the cap in regular battles to force red into "acts of heroism" - same on fort despair if I'm in a well armored tank... cap area... hull down. in both cases I'm not thinking that I'm capping out... instead I want red to do things I want (fight me in a better position).

 

and since the heat maps are different (like I said I can't see them) then they are influential - unless you think something else is changing player behavior. the caps make players go to different parts of the map and fight in different places for different things. caps may not be how you win supremacy, but just like regular battles, they are a component to be exploited. seems strange to be that you think otherwise.



VonTink #30 Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:17 PM

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Best supremacy win I was ever part of was when 6 greens were killed, including myself.  We had capped enough that we were near 1000.  One green was AFK from the start and stayed alive for us to hit 1000 points.  It was awesome to see the reds lose that way.

 

 



_Crusader6_ #31 Posted 13 February 2021 - 05:09 PM

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Like anything in this game there are real absolutes (other than being AFK is a good way to win).   
  The player base is so bad that it’s not predictable as to what teams will do.  
 

Depending on map there is nothing wrong with getting an uncontested cap early. 
  Also depending on teams it may be prudent in some maps to get caps as opposed to fighting, especially when at a disadvantage for tank type on terrain.  
 

But taking a tank out to the fight to cap isn’t usually a good policy

 

Personally - I don’t see a lot of wins in Supremacy due to caps, unless it’s a lazy team capping over killing an AFK or two.  
  
I’m going to go back through the last 1000 supremacy games I’ve had logged and sort by type of wins.

  Give me a bit as I am currently out and about - but can easily sort it on excel when home. 


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Popcann #32 Posted 13 February 2021 - 05:23 PM

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When trying to ace a tank isn’t supremacy the better mode to play as you gain more points capping.



otirruborez #33 Posted 13 February 2021 - 08:49 PM

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you only cap to make the other team scramble for wn8. sometimes they charge in and die.

_Crusader6_ #34 Posted 14 February 2021 - 12:01 AM

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I tabulated all my data. In 1k supremacy games in tier X I saw 23 cap wins/losses 
  So 2.3% 

In those 23 games, 15 where won by timing out an AFK. 
 

But of special note, of the 23 caps 7 have happened in the last 100 games 

  4 in fact in the last 20.. 

 

I lost 3 of those 4 games today in Supremacy by cap: 

5k Dmg 2 kill 

4.8 k DMG 3 kill 

4.6 dmg 4 kill 

 

Each of those had two green AFK, and I could relocate or kill enough to make the W. 

  

 


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BAR_001 #35 Posted 14 February 2021 - 05:54 PM

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View Postminitel_NA, on 13 February 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

positive, even acknowledging that you are a superior warrior to me by far, I, for once, disagree with you.

 

caps in spremacy are useless because teams have no clue how to play caps, and that’s partly because teams are simply useless and partly because caps in normal games are useless. Therefore no one ever thinks about them. The base player is a Trigger happy airhead. Not necessarily a guy with a taste for analysis and patient planning of actions, which calling requires.

 

 

 Well said. A statistical analysis of boneheads in action will prove what...?  Yes, a gun removed from action is costly. On the other hand there are maps where a "free" cap is there for the taking and it would cost exactly nothing to take it, but the pleb mentality is to ignore it anyway. Sometimes costing a win. To me this is idiocy on parade. And there are times when a thinking person can cap and shoot simultaneously, costing exactly nothing. I acknowledge the point Positive is making and most of the time he is absolutely correct about it. But I also agree with VOP that it is too simplistic and conversely there are times when the exercise of an additional two or three brain cells could potentially produce a win. Or at least provide a defensive measure to prevent a needless loss. 


Edited by BAR_001, 14 February 2021 - 05:57 PM.

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THERebrth #36 Posted 14 February 2021 - 06:05 PM

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Caps arent completely useless, plus it usually helps give directions to the teams, whether they listen or not is another story tho. Otherwise I like to immediately cap on some maps like Normandy "C" or "D" or on Yukon. But ofc other maps i ignore the caps unless i have to.

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THERebrth #37 Posted 14 February 2021 - 06:15 PM

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Additionally from the aforementioned post, this post is made from, I think that its actually easier to play in supremacy than in encounter because it gives me a direction to go protect a cap, but ofc for most people its easier to just go with the team and not having to think about caps, unless you are like me and can think of like a dozen ways of approaching a battle

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lafite2014 #38 Posted 15 February 2021 - 04:36 AM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 12 February 2021 - 05:28 PM, said:

So this post is more or less a response to this thread here: http://forum.wotblit...29#entry1755729

 

But it's just as the title says. Supremacy caps are useless. I decided to play some games in my 113 to test exactly how useless though. And welp, as it turns out, they're even more useless than I originally thought

 

So I played 61 games in the 113. In those 61 games, only 5 total games were won by a team reaching 1000 points. Yeah.... only 5.... of 61.... Literally every other game was won by one team destroying all 7 tanks on the other team.

 

And of those 5 games won by supremacy caps, only 2 were won by the team that was losing. The other 3 were won by the team that was winning the fight (and in all 3 cases, winning by so much that they would have won regardless unless multiple tanks drowned or got racked). 


Also, of those 5 games that were won by supremacy caps, 2 of them were on Middleburg... (just another reason why Middleburg needs to be removed from the game).

 

Another piece of data: I also kept track of the games where a team captured 2 supremacy caps. And of those instances (of which there were 15), the team with 2 supremacy caps lost 13 of those times.... 

 

 

 

Now this may run counter to how many may think that you're "supposed" to play supremacy. But the raw facts are here. Capping supremacy caps is counter-productive to winning. Most of the time, trying to win on supremacy caps simply puts guns out of the fight for too long, or leads you into terrible places just to get that second cap. 

 

So do your teams a favor. Forget about the flippin' caps. Put your gun in the game. Put it in a good spot. Just do anything other than capping when the battle is being decided

 

A few rebuttals

 


All right I decided to accept your challenge and record some stats myself, so I sat down with pen and paper and dutifully recorded my results today wondering if they’d confirm your theory. And ironically they varied considerably from what you reported. I played 30 games in supremacy and of those 14 were decided on points not kills. That’s 47%. Nearly half the games were decided on points. Now admittedly neither of our sample sizes were large enough to have any real significance but I do think these results justify my original post. In light of today’s games I’d say it’s ludicrous to suggest that caps don’t matter in supremacy. They are a part of the game and a part you are willing to completely ignore. But more importantly I feel you are doing a great disservice to new players looking for direction. Drive right through the cap and you are leading them to defeat. Top players may be able to ensure all seven kills before the timer runs out on them but below average players won’t have a chance. 



minitel_NA #39 Posted 15 February 2021 - 09:14 AM

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View Postlafite2014, on 15 February 2021 - 04:36 AM, said:


All right I decided to accept your challenge and record some stats myself, so I sat down with pen and paper and dutifully recorded my results today wondering if they’d confirm your theory. And ironically they varied considerably from what you reported. I played 30 games in supremacy and of those 14 were decided on points not kills. That’s 47%. Nearly half the games were decided on points. Now admittedly neither of our sample sizes were large enough to have any real significance but I do think these results justify my original post. In light of today’s games I’d say it’s ludicrous to suggest that caps don’t matter in supremacy. They are a part of the game and a part you are willing to completely ignore. But more importantly I feel you are doing a great disservice to new players looking for direction. Drive right through the cap and you are leading them to defeat. Top players may be able to ensure all seven kills before the timer runs out on them but below average players won’t have a chance. 


And here you introduce another factor: 

you aren’t a big damage maker. 
in other words, that you make damage or not doesn’t influence the battle as when positive decides to make damage or not. 
Let’s consider someone caricatural to expand on my point: if someone who on average gets to choir once per game now decides to cap and not die — I mean not dying while attempting to cap which is certainly useless —then  he might start winning more than when he goes head on with the reds and shoots one time before dying.

as a result he could conclude that capping is worth it and fighting isn’t valuable (1)

and that’s just because capping is more or less the same efficiency for everyone while the shooting impact is hugely different depending on players since some players make twice their wheight and some barely 20%


Personally I still consider — maybe by a cognitive bias — that in public match, a lot of games can be won by exploiting the enemy wrong move and capping, rather than making damage. 
 

but, guess what: I’m not a good damage maker either (slow inaccurate hands and impatient mind). However I think I’m a good strategist, and I have a taste for pacific wins.

 

(2)

in reality such player don’t even see the cap or the point of survival but that was just a mind experience: there is a level where damage is so little, capping would have more impact if (you survive).


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minitel_NA #40 Posted 15 February 2021 - 09:32 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 13 February 2021 - 01:44 PM, said:

 

 


I don't want you to think I'm telling you how you play... you might find caps useless in supremacy, I don't. they are a tool for changing the behavior of red team. that's one reason why you can't measure the utility of caps by how the battle was won - example, canal, supremacy, 2 v 1, 2 caps each, everyone's a one shot, I'm just behind on points. I have to look for a kill. I get it. now the other guy has to do something. I watch the only logical cap he can get to and the points timer clicks on, and there he appears. I kill him. by your reckoning caps didn't play any part in that.

 

also on canal if I'm in a heavy toon I sometimes use the cap in regular battles to force red into "acts of heroism" - same on fort despair if I'm in a well armored tank... cap area... hull down. in both cases I'm not thinking that I'm capping out... instead I want red to do things I want (fight me in a better position).

 

and since the heat maps are different (like I said I can't see them) then they are influential - unless you think something else is changing player behavior. the caps make players go to different parts of the map and fight in different places for different things. caps may not be how you win supremacy, but just like regular battles, they are a component to be exploited. seems strange to be that you think otherwise.


i agree. Once you own majority of the good caps you can just dig in and defend. Reds will throw the towel trying to come in and once you have killed them all it’s easy to conclude that the game was won on kils rather than points, it’s a false conclusion.

 

i also noticed that a lot of my friends with much better stats than I have will just ignore supremacy or even turn it off for various reasons, either they are used to rely on damage to win, and have accepted a certain strategy behavior that’s valid but ignores the cap, and they are unwilling to reassess that complex part. Some have never adjusted to the threee bases and to the even more  chaotic path of their teammates in that game mode. Some are wn8 and stat obsessed and think a cap on win is lowly and will damage their stats (ok those I usually label “accointances” more than “friends” ). And  I do know people who would rather lose on a 5K dmg than win on a 1,5K. There are tons of reasons or mechanics that make some excellent players avoid supremacy or underestimate capping.

 

overall I still blame WG for the lack of capable maps in encounters. No map is cap centered and makes capping a decent option. Noob or super uni , according to me that leads to a general outcome that no one is trained to practice and recognize a good cap opportunity. 
 

i remember that you couldn’t ignore the cap on falls creek (most people hated that but I had so much laughters) fort despair could be capped quite reliably. Half a dozen other maps could be capped from time to time. Those were authentic wins, and very refreshing gameplays.
Nowadays oven if you could cap once in maybe a hundred games  (malinovka, canal, canyon, ...) , none will support you and it’s untenable. Fault to the absence of  practice in the playerbase from the bottom all the way to the top.
 


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