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I was right. We will remember 8.5

8.5 credits pls fix

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twirlingtowardsfreedom #121 Posted 26 November 2021 - 08:56 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 26 November 2021 - 06:58 PM, said:


Definitely is punishing on those who don’t have full garages and swimming in credits.   
   I think it’s a multiply poor idea. 
1) Minimizes the effectiveness of premium time. 
2) Creates a significant chasm of tanks due to the have/have nots in terms of credit reserves. 

3) Trolls profit more due to lack of repair costs 


 

 

I was thinking today that the punishment on people with small garages is compounded by those of us with big garages always having multiple x5x2 anniversary bonuses.



JefeMac #122 Posted 26 November 2021 - 09:29 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 26 November 2021 - 06:58 PM, said:


Definitely is punishing on those who don’t have full garages and swimming in credits.   
   I think it’s a multiply poor idea. 
1) Minimizes the effectiveness of premium time. 
2) Creates a significant chasm of tanks due to the have/have nots in terms of credit reserves. 

3) Trolls profit more due to lack of repair costs 


 

All great points as usual. And ones that any competent organization would be fully aware of if they had diverse enough teams empowered to speak up. 



 

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__V_O_P__ #123 Posted 27 November 2021 - 12:21 AM

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View PostJefeMac, on 26 November 2021 - 04:29 PM, said:

All great points as usual. And ones that any competent organization would be fully aware of if they had diverse enough teams empowered to speak up. 


from what C6 has said before WG seems somewhat “Balkanized” 



JefeMac #124 Posted 27 November 2021 - 12:55 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 27 November 2021 - 12:21 AM, said:


from what C6 has said before WG seems somewhat “Balkanized” 

Accurate. They participate in what’s called “Bully Capitalism.” 



 

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_Crusader6_ #125 Posted 27 November 2021 - 12:06 PM

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View PostJefeMac, on 26 November 2021 - 07:55 PM, said:

Accurate. They participate in what’s called “Bully Capitalism.” 


Annual assessments that include a box for "Leads Change", you will note it doesn't say leads positive change ;)

 

  WG is opaque at best at a lot of their reasonings.

    We saw the change from the 4 tank classes - to a bunch of unusual types was done without much explanation.  That has been preceded with some other changes, and followed with this 8.5 economic model.

 

I really don't see the point to 8.5, WG has aid the intent was to make the change credit neutral - but it clearly wasn't - so either WG totally doesn't understand their own game, or had a secondary reason for the change, or both of those reasons.

  When they changed the lower tiers, they said it was to help beginning players - which lets face it repair costs are painful for poor players - and this was a way to make it easier on FTP or really bad players.

 

 When they moved the changes up to higher tiers, one would follow that was the goal, but why?

 

Ribble has said on Discord that they didn't alter Premium Tank Credit Coefficients - which may be true - but they altered the base pay out for both Assist and Direct Damage - which then affects Credit Coefficients directly - as like the Premium Time "nerf" if you are making less of a base the bonuses are less.

 

 It would be like someones boss saying - we are going to keep giving you your 20% performance bonus - but we are decreasing your base salary by 50%.

   All of a sudden that 20% really isn't giving you what it did -- sure it's still 20% on paper - but if you where making 100k and getting 20% on top -- that's 120k

 Now that you make 50k - that 20% isn't 20k anymore - its 10k.   They they add some other bonuses for various things - but it doesn't affect your 20% bonus.

 

At the end you are still making less - and wondering WTF your boss is smoking - and probably freshening up your resume to find a new job.

 

That is how I view the effects on Premium Time, and somewhat the effects on premium tanks (though the hit on those wasn't as bad as the PT hit).

      

  

 

 

 


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__V_O_P__ #126 Posted 27 November 2021 - 03:57 PM

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View Post9_V0LT, on 17 November 2021 - 06:05 PM, said:

One of the benefits of age and income security, is not having to worry about the cost of APCR


very true but then there's cholesterol and ED to worry about instead.... am I right?



__V_O_P__ #127 Posted 27 November 2021 - 04:01 PM

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View PostJefeMac, on 26 November 2021 - 07:55 PM, said:

Accurate. They participate in what’s called “Bully Capitalism.” 


possible...but likely they are just very fragmented, which would fit with a (admittedly stereotyped) culture of communism where power was distributed. seems pretty obvious that they don't have a "model" of their in-game economy or income stream...



_Crusader6_ #128 Posted 27 November 2021 - 05:45 PM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 27 November 2021 - 10:57 AM, said:


very true but then there's cholesterol and ED to worry about instead.... am I right?

Stay active and healthy and those issues aren’t necessarily a big deal.  
    Plus there is medicine for both if you need.   
 

Even for someone with high cholesterol throughout my life (even at the peak of my fitness levels in the Army and later contract work days) it can be managed easily with medicine, exercise and some concession to the diet (yes I’d eat steak 7 days a week if I could, but maybe three is more reasonable) 
     I can’t speak to the other issue (at least yet).  


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JefeMac #129 Posted 27 November 2021 - 07:21 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 27 November 2021 - 05:45 PM, said:

Stay active and healthy and those issues aren’t necessarily a big deal.  
    Plus there is medicine for both if you need.   
 

Even for someone with high cholesterol throughout my life (even at the peak of my fitness levels in the Army and later contract work days) it can be managed easily with medicine, exercise and some concession to the diet (yes I’d eat steak 7 days a week if I could, but maybe three is more reasonable) 
     I can’t speak to the other issue (at least yet).  

“Stay healthy.” Man did I miss that part……



 

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JefeMac #130 Posted 27 November 2021 - 07:25 PM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 27 November 2021 - 04:01 PM, said:


possible...but likely they are just very fragmented, which would fit with a (admittedly stereotyped) culture of communism where power was distributed. seems pretty obvious that they don't have a "model" of their in-game economy or income stream...


Yeah that fragmentization illustrates there’s no clear delegation of authority in the organization. There’s a “strainer” in the system somewhere bottle necking data/info going in and coming out.
 

Got that nugget from the the book “The Men, The Mission and me.”


Edited by JefeMac, 27 November 2021 - 07:26 PM.


 

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_Crusader6_ #131 Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:20 PM

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Mission, Men, Equipment, Self.   
I hate Annihilator spammers...  
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__V_O_P__ #132 Posted 27 November 2021 - 11:36 PM

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View PostJefeMac, on 27 November 2021 - 02:25 PM, said:


Yeah that fragmentization illustrates there’s no clear delegation of authority in the organization. There’s a “strainer” in the system somewhere bottle necking data/info going in and coming out.
 

Got that nugget from the the book “The Men, The Mission and me.”

 

that book was a bit meh tbh. 



JefeMac #133 Posted 28 November 2021 - 04:20 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 27 November 2021 - 11:36 PM, said:

 

that book was a bit meh tbh. 

How so? 



 

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__V_O_P__ #134 Posted 28 November 2021 - 12:54 PM

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View PostJefeMac, on 27 November 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:

How so? 


i DMd you



JefeMac #135 Posted 28 November 2021 - 08:36 PM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 28 November 2021 - 12:54 PM, said:


i DMd you

Got it. Interesting ! o7 my man. 



 

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wannabeunicum #136 Posted 07 December 2021 - 06:37 AM

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Honestly seems like after the 1st/2nd/3rd class + high caliber bonuses the economy is fixed. Its a bit silly for why WG decided to nerf premium account/premium tank coefficient so much as a large portion of any non premium tank income is dependent on medals at this point. 

_Crusader6_ #137 Posted 07 December 2021 - 12:22 PM

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View Postwannabeunicum, on 07 December 2021 - 01:37 AM, said:

Honestly seems like after the 1st/2nd/3rd class + high caliber bonuses the economy is fixed. Its a bit silly for why WG decided to nerf premium account/premium tank coefficient so much as a large portion of any non premium tank income is dependent on medals at this point. 


Well it makes it so one plays a lot of unusual tanks if you are trying to get medals.  
 

However it is clear that many players are simply stripping tanks of any cost drivers and trying to tread water that way, most of them on the green team apparently ;)
 


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Gavidoc01 #138 Posted 07 December 2021 - 04:12 PM

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Before you saw a tank without camo and you could naturally assumed it was a bad player.

The remaining 5 tanks on your team, just because, you also viewed them as bad players.

 

Now you see more tanks without camo and you naturally assume it is bad players.

The remaining tanks on your team that have camo are also viewed as bad players.

 

Same same.


To those who lose

Winrate is meaningless.

 

 

 


JefeMac #139 Posted 07 December 2021 - 05:16 PM

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View Post__Frostbite, on 17 November 2021 - 09:01 PM, said:

All for the wrong reasons. and I'm not even talking about the completely unneeded buffs to Tier 8 heavies (252, Shark, Caern, Tiger II, looking at you).

 

Before 8.5 released, I purposely tried to downplay the credit changes that were going to be entering the game for all tiers. The reason for this was simple: I didn't want people panicking about changes that we couldn't test and experience. There was no point in encouraging that quite yet. When the update released, people were going to realize what was happening pretty quickly.

 

Update 8.5 released last night. It looks pretty bad. It's time to let Wargaming know.

 

When you log in later today, or right now, to play a tech tree tank from Tier 8-10: expect to not make credits. It looks like WG nerfed their gross income by ~30-50% (note= needs to be tested), so when you play with a full consumables and provisions loadout and fire the occasional premium round, you absolutely will burn credits. There is no way around it. There's so many things to rant about that I have trouble coming up with what to start with.

 

- Even the most successful battles without Premium Time in non-Premium Tier 8-10's are essentially guaranteed to lose credits (if playing a tank with premium shells/consumables/provisions), unless you earn one or more of the three medals granting credits. Credit boosters are now the new Premium Time: purple credit boosters are currently averaging more credits for a battle than the literal battle for Tier 8-10 non premiums.

 

- Speaking of Premium Time, its almost half as effective as before. When you're only able to make 30k credits w/o Premium vs the 50k credits before in a decent game for a normal Tier 10, the 50% bonus from Premium Time is earning the player much less credits. Really, really insulting to players that have hundreds or thousands of days of Premium saved up, and were expecting its value not to be diminished. It used to be that Premium Time would allow players to net a significant amount of credits, now it's hardly able to keep a battle go positive. This was something I knew was going to happen in 8.5 no matter what, I couldn't play this down and won't now either.

 

- The credit changes encourage playing without provisions and using the most basic consumables. Playing a handicapped tank will ensure that you don't lose credits, but also ensures that your tank is permanently handicapped. Little Timmy can play his Pershing with no Premium account, no provisions, no premium shells, and only a repair kit; while he contributes nothing to a battle for your team, he will still earn credits while you drop 3k damage and lose with a kitted tank, which means you lose credits. Sounds fair and balanced, and totally makes sense.

 

- With the removal of non-premium shell costs, there is no incentive to hit shots and be efficient with your shell choices for damage. Before, penning HE shells for additional damage with a cheaper HE round meant you were getting more value for your shots. Having a good aim and not missing rewarded the player. Now, it's completely irrelevant if you fire 10 AP shells or 100 AP shells for the same damage. How exactly is this supposed to encourage players to play well? I appreciate being able to take blind shots without a cost, but that's the only benefit for me.

 

- Premium shells are now effectively much more expensive, since their price didn't change and the tank makes significantly less credits. If you fire 4-5 premium shells at Tier 10, you're burning nearly as many credits as you are earning in gross. This is yet another nerf to tanks that are balanced in mind to shoot more premium rounds (lights and mediums). Meanwhile in the same update, we're getting massive buffs to mostly Tier 8 heavies including armor, pen, reload, and alpha.

 

- The special consumables and provisions that WG keeps pushing onto tank lines to balance them are now going to cost you an arm and a leg. It's also worth noting that you won't be getting a 10% discount on them from a Level 10 clan supply. Wargaming wants you to pay for the buffs to your tank through special consumables. From their perspective, it's brilliant. Why give a tank buffs that are free for the player, like a normal DPM/HP/accuracy buff; when you can make players pay permanently for the tank's buff?

 

- You can make a lot of credits through earning Ace Tankers, Kolobanov's, and Top Gun medals. Battles where you earn one or multiple of those medals will ensure a healthy profit, and in some cases, a significantly larger profit than before. The only problem with this is that earning these medals is not reliable for players, especially the noobs for which the changes were catered for, which is entirely contradictory to what WG was trying to do with this change in the economy. I'm all for getting people to play less popular tanks, but simply for the ability to farm aces to earn credits to stay afloat? That's not the way to do it.

 

- At least Premium tanks are earning a profit, although noticeably lower than before. The difference between premium and non-Premium tanks for credit earning is much more exaggerated now: the benefit is not just tenfold, but can be considered as infinitely more beneficial as Premium tanks will guarantee making credits, regardless of how poor the player's actions are and regardless of win or loss. Non premium tanks' goal rn is simply trying to break even. More reason to only spam broken Premium tanks, amiright?

 


 

Now, how can this be fixed? Here's a few ways I would approach the issue:

1) Completely revert the changes in 8.6 and pretend this never happened.

 

1b) Nah, this is Wargaming that we're talking about. Getting them to admit a mistake is rarer than a blue moon. I would be highly surprised if they reverted the changes (regardless of player feedback), especially since they implemented the changes in the first place with the hopes of fixing a supposedly broken system. Veterans have to remember that lots of players that have <10 tanks in their garage with no Premium Account or no Premium tanks, and they struggle to buy tanks. Not everyone is sitting on a pile of credits that couldn't be burned in years if they tried. Personally, I think this lack of credits for a lot of players stems more from making terrible financial decisions as opposed to a system being broken, but just look through the comments of the video that WG put out about the changes; 99% of the comments are from people saying how glad they are that WG is "fixing the system". Some comments even say things like "now I can afford to run provisions!" and "now I don't need a Premium tank to grind credits!". If only they knew...well I guess they're going to realize quickly now.

 

2) Reduce the cost of premium shells, provisions, and consumables. Since the use of the aftermentioned things shouldn't be encouraged to decrease, and the credit coefficient nerfs to tanks was significantly more drastic than the free non-premium rounds and repair costs, the remaining costs of the game should be lowered. Technically camo should make the list, but who is paying credits for camos in 2021? Well, maybe the people targeted for these changes. However, this doesn't fix how Wargaming has nerfed Premium Time.

 

3) Allow players other ways to earn credits in a battle for their battle actions. Blocked damage, initial spots, kills, duration of time that tracks are broken and enemies are spotted are options, although I'm wary of encouraging players to abuse this.

 

4) Allow players other ways to earn credits in general. Why isn't there a method of investing credits in a way that can earn passive income? It doesn't have to be an ever expanding way to exponentially make larger and larger credit investments, there can be a simple cap on credits earned in a single day. If barring that, allow players to invest either gold, free XP, or something else into a one time purchase that earns passive income of credits.

 

5) Expand the amount of medals that can earn credits, sooner rather than later. Maybe include Ribbons in there as well. IMO this is putting a Band-Aid on a bullet hole, but this could allow WG an easy cop out and the ability to double down on their changes, and its already something they mentioned they could be doing.

 

6) Increase the amount of credits earned in Ratings. Preferably, the way to encourage players to play Ratings is through a working points system that rewards skill and not battle spam in OP tanks. But, you gotta do what you gotta do. I can't come up with a reason why Ratings should earn significantly more credits than Randoms because they are almost the same thing in the long run, but Ratings needs more reasons to keep players there.

 

7) Increase the amount of credits earned in Tournaments. Not going to lie, the credit rewards in QT's and other tournaments are still terrible. Really love earning <400,000 credits for an hour at Tier 10 winning all of my matches when I could just grind that much in half the time playing a Tier 8 premium vehicle in pubs. There is absolutely no reason to de-incentify players from playing tournaments, and all the reason to encourage players to play tournaments as opposed to normal battles.

 

There's gotta be a lot of other ways to fix the 8.5 changes, but these are just ones that seemed obvious to me.

 

A report of how badly credit coefficients got nerfed should come soon from either Positive or myself. This seems like the most critical thing to test right now: how the credit earning calculations have changed, if at all; and what the most efficient way to grind credits is now.

Where’s the podcasts dude?



 

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