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wotbstars first rating system attempt plans


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GandalfTehGray #121 Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:51 AM

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No other metric for any other WoT penalizes a player for platooning to my knowledge. Platoononing does usually increase win rate but usually at dc/r ratio expense. If you absolutely feel like one is necessary. 15 seems more appropriate than. 30

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LittleLovelyGuyFromSpace #122 Posted 05 February 2015 - 08:15 AM

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View PostCSTCARE, on 05 February 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

 

Shouldn't the battles be much higher than the players or am I misreading it?

 

battles/per player are reported.

 

Bellow numbers say that there are 20 playes around who own FV215b and they played 67 battles in average

 

FV215b   10   20   67 


Richie_McCaw #123 Posted 05 February 2015 - 08:21 AM

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View Postface4stas, on 05 February 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

 

battles/per player are reported.

 

Bellow numbers say that there are 20 playes around who own FV215b and they played 67 battles in average

 

FV215b   10   20   67 

 

Cool that makes sense, thanks.

Str8UpJack #124 Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:44 PM

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View Postthunderthies, on 04 February 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

 

The more I think about this the more I am inclined to agree with you, concep and others who have pointed to not having a platoon adjustment. I think a valid argument can be made for both sides, but there are also just so many factors to platooning, as you mentioned, that nullify its effectiveness. 

 

In the end I'm not super concerned about it though. I'm just happy to have the ability to look up players' stats outside of the game. Beggars can't be choosers. 

 

View PostSkiFletch, on 05 February 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:

I guess I'll just keep collecting data and can hopefully answer some of these "talking out our rears" points regarding platoons.  Only data can back up any of your beliefs on whether tooning gives you a win rate, OR damage bonus.  Since the API doesn't give it to us, I'll have to do it the old fashioned way, manually.

 

How many players would be needed and how many games Tooned and solo to have enough data to make a meaningful assesment of platooning impact?  I'm sure we can get enough of us willing to submit data to help come up with an accurate platoon adjustment.  Tooning does effect your just about every aspect of your stats.  So far, I don't think anyone can say exactly what that effect is as a % without some collected data.  

 

The effort going into this project is really outstanding and big props to Face for taking this on knowing full well he was going to get an earful of opinions from everyone.  It's been mentioned several times but I don't think it can be stressed enough that all these equations can be tweaked and most likely will be as more and more data is collected.  Everyone should be willing to help collect whatever data will help and stop being argumentative about why their opinion is somehow more relevant.  It will all sort itself out over time.  


 

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1991Syclone #125 Posted 05 February 2015 - 01:32 PM

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All this talk of platooning.  Look at the existing WN8 information for the desktop version - http://wiki.wneffici....net/pages/WN8  Notice that nowhere does it mention taking platooning into account.  Yes, platooning can increase your win rate, but I think the majority of players in this game do not platoon.  It's that simple.  We are basing all of this on the fact that we are a small subset of the community that come to the forums and know that platooning does help increase your W/R.  I have also noticed that platooning usually drops my damage and kills as it's split among the two players (unless I get killed really quick!).

 

They also provide the basic mathematical formula to determine WN8 on there.  Is that not something that can be used here?  Not trying to diminish the efforts, but why try to re-invent the wheel?  I would think that using the existing formula would be a good start. 

 

Just my 2 cents, and thank you for all the effort you are putting into this.



SkiFletch #126 Posted 05 February 2015 - 01:49 PM

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One other random musing re: platooning.  How often do you guys see platoons on the other team that are REALLY BAD?  I see it CONSTANTLY.  Syclone is right, we are a very small sub-set of the player base.  Like ridiculously small.  Certainly less than 10% of the playerbase, perhaps even less than 5%.  For as many of "us" that are excellent players and platoon-ers, there are full on potato platoons out there.  They in fact would be dragging their team's chances of winning down.  My guess is that if we had a total sum of platoon data you'd see the same distribution for win rate as you see for overall win rate.  As good as some of us might be in a platoon, our antithesis is out there, fail tooning and crushing their team's hope for winning.  It probably all evens out in the end.


Serapth #127 Posted 05 February 2015 - 02:15 PM

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View PostSkiFletch, on 05 February 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

One other random musing re: platooning.  How often do you guys see platoons on the other team that are REALLY BAD?  I see it CONSTANTLY.  Syclone is right, we are a very small sub-set of the player base.  Like ridiculously small.  Certainly less than 10% of the playerbase, perhaps even less than 5%.  For as many of "us" that are excellent players and platoon-ers, there are full on potato platoons out there.  They in fact would be dragging their team's chances of winning down.  My guess is that if we had a total sum of platoon data you'd see the same distribution for win rate as you see for overall win rate.  As good as some of us might be in a platoon, our antithesis is out there, fail tooning and crushing their team's hope for winning.  It probably all evens out in the end.

 

not even close to even from my observations.  Truly bad platoons are anomoly from my perspective.  They happen, but when they do I really notice it, which is an indicator of how rare an occurrence it is.  But then I solo mostly, perhaps platooned you get matched against platoons more often.  As to fail players, they aren't going to matter anyways, they don't care about stats and the impact any poor bastard that gets stuck with them them, so they should be a neutral factor.

concep #128 Posted 05 February 2015 - 02:22 PM

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View PostSerapth, on 05 February 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

 

not even close to even from my observations.  Truly bad platoons are anomoly from my perspective.  They happen, but when they do I really notice it, which is an indicator of how rare an occurrence it is.  But then I solo mostly, perhaps platooned you get matched against platoons more often.  As to fail players, they aren't going to matter anyways, they don't care about stats and the impact any poor bastard that gets stuck with them them, so they should be a neutral factor.

 

An anomaly? I see them all the time as well. I have rolled over the same platoon multiple times while playing solo and afterwards, I found out they were 40% players who really had no business at Tier X.

 

 

Also, I didn't mean to neg rep you, Bronze Knight, my bad.


Edited by concep, 05 February 2015 - 02:23 PM.

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Str8UpJack #129 Posted 05 February 2015 - 02:32 PM

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View PostSkiFletch, on 05 February 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

One other random musing re: platooning.  How often do you guys see platoons on the other team that are REALLY BAD?  I see it CONSTANTLY.  Syclone is right, we are a very small sub-set of the player base.  Like ridiculously small.  Certainly less than 10% of the playerbase, perhaps even less than 5%.  For as many of "us" that are excellent players and platoon-ers, there are full on potato platoons out there.  They in fact would be dragging their team's chances of winning down.  My guess is that if we had a total sum of platoon data you'd see the same distribution for win rate as you see for overall win rate.  As good as some of us might be in a platoon, our antithesis is out there, fail tooning and crushing their team's hope for winning.  It probably all evens out in the end.

On the x3 weekends we've seen number of between 12k-13K number of players.. I don't know where there is a master list of how many members we have here that are active ( not the total number ) but if its even 200, I would be shocked.  I think some of our conversation tend to forget we are hugely outnumbered by the non-forums players and that is where the majority of the potato division is coming from.  

 

When I play, I rarely see other platoons.  When you are platooned you will normally see more platoons because MM looks to match up platoons from what I've seen.  Even then, I've seen platoon sessions where we didn't see another platoons for 5 matches in a row.  Yes, there are some truly bad platoons out there made up of the P.D..  I think by the time this system does get worked out we will find that platooning does not factor in nearly as much as we think it does, with the exception of possibly a slightly inflated win rate.. and most of us understand and agree that the W/R is the LAST method used to judge a players skill when looking at the stats. 


 

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LittleLovelyGuyFromSpace #130 Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:53 PM

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even there are people who suck in platoons it even more confirms the point of these players been noobs. If you are a noob and bring another noob in the game or even worse you bring a troll low tier tank in the game and lose. you should be penalized for it. if you platoon then unless you win more frequently you are a noob and it will be reflected in the raiting.

Edited by face4stas, 05 February 2015 - 03:55 PM.


1991Syclone #131 Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:56 PM

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Out of all the people whose stats you've collected, what's the percentage of battles done in platoons?  Do you have that info?  Personally, I don't thin platooning should be taken into account since the vast majority of battles are done *without* platooning.

Serapth #132 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:03 PM

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View Post1991Syclone, on 05 February 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Out of all the people whose stats you've collected, what's the percentage of battles done in platoons?  Do you have that info?  Personally, I don't thin platooning should be taken into account since the vast majority of battles are done *without* platooning.

 

Yeah check out most of the top win rate guys... You'll see 50-100% of victories platooned.  So yeah, the vast majority of their battles aren't.  I was actually kinda shocked to see just how much people platooned once that stat was made public.

Str8UpJack #133 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:11 PM

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View Postface4stas, on 05 February 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

even there are people who suck in platoons it even more confirms the point of these players been noobs. If you are a noob and bring another noob in the game or even worse you bring a troll low tier tank in the game and lose. you should be penalized for it. if you platoon then unless you win more frequently you are a noob and it will be reflected in the raiting.

So any platoon penalty applied to me will be in part based on fail platoon?

 

The way your comments are worded does make it sound like there is a bias against players that platoon and this will skew the results away from what the true player rating should be.  

 

Caution needs to be exercised with what is feeling like a negative bias towards those that platoon.  There is some validity towards adjisting some areas of a players stats based on frequent platooning but the trend towards calling this a "penalty" is not fostering a healthy beginning to a fair rating system 


 

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voyager35 #134 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:14 PM

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I always wonder how can people do 80% up platooning. Sometime if I just wanna one quick battle, I won't bother find a platoon mate, and that happens a lot. I only platoon when I know I have a plenty of time playing, or other people invite me. Not sure how it works with those people. 


sheriffsherman #135 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:30 PM

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View PostSerapth, on 05 February 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

 

Yeah check out most of the top win rate guys... You'll see 50-100% of victories platooned.  So yeah, the vast majority of their battles aren't.  I was actually kinda shocked to see just how much people platooned once that stat was made public.

 

right, the stat presently only shows the number of platoon victories in relation to overall number of victories.  I think what cyclone meant tho.  Is he would like to see the number of platoon victories outta the number of platoon attempts, does that make sense?  In other words, your platoon WR so to speak.  I think that would be a great number to compare to your non platoon WR to.  That would be an interesting number for most ppl to have access to.  You might discover that you do better while not platooned etc...

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Serapth #136 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:31 PM

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View PostStr8UpJack, on 05 February 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

So any platoon penalty applied to me will be in part based on fail platoon?

 

The way your comments are worded does make it sound like there is a bias against players that platoon and this will skew the results away from what the true player rating should be.  

 

Caution needs to be exercised with what is feeling like a negative bias towards those that platoon.  There is some validity towards adjisting some areas of a players stats based on frequent platooning but the trend towards calling this a "penalty" is not fostering a healthy beginning to a fair rating system 

 

Simple solution then...  Boost solo players. Thus no penalty :)

Serapth #137 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:33 PM

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View Postsheriffsherman, on 05 February 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

 

right, the stat presently only shows the number of platoon victories in relation to overall number of victories.  I think what cyclone meant tho.  Is he would like to see the number of platoon victories outta the number of platoon attempts, does that make sense?  In other words, your platoon WR so to speak.  I think that would be a great number to compare to your non platoon WR to.  That would be an interesting number for most ppl to have access to.  You might discover that you do better while not platooned etc...

Oh I get it.  If only they gave us the stat for games platooned it would be easy to calculate how much of an advantage or disadvantage platoon gives each player.  Sadly they don't.



SkiFletch #138 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:35 PM

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View Postsheriffsherman, on 05 February 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

 

right, the stat presently only shows the number of platoon victories in relation to overall number of victories.  I think what cyclone meant tho.  Is he would like to see the number of platoon victories outta the number of platoon attempts, does that make sense?  In other words, your platoon WR so to speak.  I think that would be a great number to compare to your non platoon WR to.  That would be an interesting number for most ppl to have access to.  You might discover that you do better while not platooned etc...

 

Unfortunately, API doesn't make this available yet.  Only way to do it is old fashioned logging manually.  I've begun to do so but it's gonna take a while to do so in a controlled fashion.


sheriffsherman #139 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:38 PM

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View PostSerapth, on 05 February 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

Oh I get it.  If only they gave us the stat for games platooned it would be easy to calculate how much of an advantage or disadvantage platoon gives each player.  Sadly they don't.

 

there is no access to those numbers?  I think thats unfortunate, say for instance my platoon WR is 80% and my regular WR is 51%, i believe that would truly be a good measure of how platooning is helping or not helping individual players.  It's possible that there are folks don't like platooning because they weren't rewarded by it.  So the might be 57%WR solo and 53%WR in platoon explaining the low number of platoons they've been on etc...

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sheriffsherman #140 Posted 05 February 2015 - 04:39 PM

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Sorry guyz just rambling...

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