392 replies to this topic

[thunderthies]

johndd1_winner, on 05 February 2015 - 02:50 AM, said:

Yeah, again, I don't care enough either way to scream and stomp my feet about the issue. I do, on some levels, understand the other sides argument, as you also stated. But Overall I think platooning, while certainly effective, is not itself the easy win scenario.

 

Fo sho

[Bronze_Knight]

Meh, I don't platoon much. But when I do, I notice a up swing in my win ratio for that play session, and I don't even use TS.

 

 

This was already mentioned by someone, but the impact that a 2 person platoon has on a 7(5) person team is noticeable. IF the platoon mates work out their general map strategy(s) before hand. 

 

 

Concep, it sounds like you just want WIN8 for WOTB and won't be happy with anything but. Chill bro, this is just the first attempt. 

 

 

In fact that is what everyone should do, this is not going to be set in stone. In fact, plan on this metric changing. 

[mehliveat]

Bronze_Knight, on 05 February 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

Meh, I don't platoon much. But when I do, I notice a up swing in my win ratio for that play session, and I don't even use TS.

This was already mentioned by someone, but the impact that a 2 person platoon has on a 7(5) person team is noticeable. IF the platoon mates work out their general map strategy(s) before hand. 

Concep, it sounds like you just want WIN8 for WOTB and won't be happy with anything but. Chill bro, this is just the first attempt. 

In fact that is what everyone should do, this is not going to be set in stone. In fact, plan on this metric changing. 

 

As to WN8.  A direct transfer of WN8 formulas wouldn't quite work here either.  The games are too different.

 

Take an easy example.  A WR of 55 is currently about 85th percentile with 5k samples.  While a 55 WR in WN8 is 95th percentile.  I don't really see the percentile really move too far from here.  5k samples is pretty statistically significant, it might be off by a few percentile, maybe 5, but definitely not 10.

 

No matter what we do, it will need to be tweaked and refined over time.

 

Face4stas' first pass will be good and quite interesting, and should give us some good ball park numbers to look and work with.

Edited by mehliveat, 05 February 2015 - 03:10 AM.

[SkiFletch]

Face, first off.  Wow you work here is tremendous so far.  Just having a way to look at stats at the loading screen has already been a benefit to me.  Thanks so much for all you've already donea few thoughts have come into my head regarding your work here.  In many ways, Concep is correct that damage ratio normalized per tank is probably one of the best possible ways to look at comparing players.  That's what it's really all about.  Damage taken vs damage received in a specific tank compared to all other players in said tank.  Win rate is going to realistically be the end result of said metric.

 

Regarding the effects of platooning, perhaps I can help.  There's a few folks I toon with for a majority of my tooning action.  jmstichler is one, and a few others.  I could probably get to 50 games with a bunch of these different players in the next couple days.  Having been a physiology research technician and coordinator in my professional life, I know all about the need for data integrity.  I'd be happy to report my win rate in a platoon vs not in a platoon.  I might even go so far as to manually collect my damage taken/received/ratio both in and out of a platoon.  I know I'm just an n of 1, but it might give us a starting point for effect of platooning on these two major statistics.  To control for this, I'd need to play all games in one tank which should be do-able.  Might take a little longer to get to a higher volume of samples, but still probably better than playing all different tank types.

[concep]

Bronze_Knight, on 04 February 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Concep, it sounds like you just want WIN8 for WOTB and won't be happy with anything but. Chill bro, this is just the first attempt.

 

I'm not happy with something that is obviously biased against players who platoon. One of his main skill factors is Winrate. WN8 takes damage in to account more than anything else, which is what should be used to judge skill. You can win all you want but it doesn't mean you contributed much to the victory. Putting out damage is what makes a victory.

[Serapth]

concep, on 05 February 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

 

I'm not happy with something that is obviously biased against players who platoon. One of his main skill factors is Winrate. WN8 takes damage in to account more than anything else, which is what should be used to judge skill. You can win all you want but it doesn't mean you contributed much to the victory. Putting out damage is what makes a victory.

 

and platooning gives you advantages across the board including being able to stay alive to put out damage.  It's either biased against platooned players, or a horrible gauge of individual skill.

[concep]

Serapth, on 05 February 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

 

and platooning gives you advantages across the board including being able to stay alive to put out damage.  It's either biased against platooned players, or a horrible gauge of individual skill.

 

Sorry but I can go and ask a dozen people on Teamspeak right now about platooning damage output and they'll most likely say platooning does NOT increase damage output. It usually balances out and therefore isn't super high like you would if you ran solo.

Edited by concep, 05 February 2015 - 05:38 AM.

[BearHawkMan]

Lets stick to face's equation and not make this a concep roastathon.

 

Face, first off, congrats on even attempting! This is great work, and I definitely like the platoon equalizer, but I also would recommend you base this off of damage more than anything else. However, there are always going to be a few glitches in the system. If fullestnuke is the one glitch but everything else works well, I am fine with that. We can all pretty much agree fullestnuke (or dq) is the best forum player, and we don't need a rating system to rate him. But great work, keep it up!

[Serapth]

concep, on 05 February 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

 

Sorry but I can go and ask a dozen people on Teamspeak right now about platooning damage output and they'll most likely say platooning does NOT increase damage output. It usually balances out and therefore isn't super high like you would if you ran solo.

That's because generally people have selective memories.  They remember the 7 kill wins and the 6000+ damage they did, but completely forget the rounds where they did almost 0 because their team got rolled and the concentrate fire of 7 tanks obliterated you.  Put it to a poll if you want, but I certainly disagree with you.  You and a Platoonmate are splitting damage two ways... There is still a ton of potential damage to be done.  Live longer == more opportunity to do damage.  Platoon == higher likelyhood of survival.  To say nothing of positional advantages ( like being coordinated to take hill on mines for example ) which will naturally lead to greater damage output.

 

At the end of the day I don't really give a damn about stats or a leaderboard or minmmaxing or whatever...  But if people are going to get into this epenis measuring contest, you need to standardize on a measuring system.  You seem to want to use inches in a land of millimetres.

[Bronze_Knight]

concep, on 05 February 2015 - 12:26 AM, said:

 

I'm not happy with something that is obviously biased against players who platoon. One of his main skill factors is Winrate. WN8 takes damage in to account more than anything else, which is what should be used to judge skill. You can win all you want but it doesn't mean you contributed much to the victory. Putting out damage is what makes a victory.

 

concep, on 05 February 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

 

Sorry but I can go and ask a dozen people on Teamspeak right now about platooning damage output and they'll most likely say platooning does NOT increase damage output. It usually balances out and therefore isn't super high like you would if you ran solo.

 

 

I bet that if you got 7 40% win ratio people with a damage ratio of 0.75 in a room together and put them against a random team of 50-53% that couldn't talk to each other except through text chat, the 40% would win. 

 

It may be that the act of platooning, by itself, does not increase damage output; but platooning often does mean an increased level of communication between the people in the platoon.

 

And, communication, does increase damage output. (I don't have anything to back this up [barring common sense] but I would love to hear some one dispute it.)

[B0JIK]

One more time "platoon win" is a function of the two people performance. I am going to focus on individual scores. You play in platoon and win - you can do more damage during the clean up phase or just by staying alive longer. Regarding damage sharing - it sounds like a joke. You always share a damage with other players whoever they are going to be - your platoon mates or some strangers. If you think your platoon mate is stealing your kills or your damage - then find another one or do not platoon.

[B0JIK]

Bronze_Knight, on 05 February 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

 

 

 

I bet that if you got 7 40% win ratio people with a damage ratio of 0.75 in a room together and put them against a random team of 50-53% that couldn't talk to each other except through text chat, the 40% would win. 

 

It may be that the act of platooning, by itself, does not increase damage output; but platooning often does mean an increased level of communication between the people in the platoon.

 

And, communication, does increase damage output. (I don't have anything to back this up [barring common sense] but I would love to hear some one dispute it.)

 

Platoons let you fix many matchmaking problems. If you play a Panther and platoon with a T29 then your winrate become a function of the T29 performance.

 

T29 average win rate is 55.16 in NA server when Panther has only 44.97.  Sorry but playing a Panther solo or in a platoon with a heavy are completely different stories.

 

Edited by face4stas, 05 February 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[Richie_McCaw]

Thank you very much for doing this. Perhaps removing WR all together may solve some of these issues. The damage ratio, kill ratio will generally result in higher winrates anyway. Or perhaps just assigning winrate a much smaller weighting than the others.

 

I know I have a higher WR when I platoon and I would imagine the impact of platooning between 2x60%+ players would be far greater than 2x45% players. Bad players are still bad and putting two of them together doesn't magically make them good. So the .3 may impact badly on the average players where platooning has little impact as opposed to two uber players. Maybe .1 would be a compromise. 

[concep]

Serapth, on 05 February 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

That's because generally people have selective memories.  They remember the 7 kill wins and the 6000+ damage they did, but completely forget the rounds where they did almost 0 because their team got rolled and the concentrate fire of 7 tanks obliterated you.  Put it to a poll if you want, but I certainly disagree with you.  You and a Platoonmate are splitting damage two ways... There is still a ton of potential damage to be done.  Live longer == more opportunity to do damage.  Platoon == higher likelyhood of survival.  To say nothing of positional advantages ( like being coordinated to take hill on mines for example ) which will naturally lead to greater damage output.

 

At the end of the day I don't really give a damn about stats or a leaderboard or minmmaxing or whatever...  But if people are going to get into this epenis measuring contest, you need to standardize on a measuring system.  You seem to want to use inches in a land of millimetres.

 

I consider 6000 damage split between to be an okay game. That's certainly not something to write home about. You just prove my point when you say "they did almost 0 damage because their team got rolled". Platooning isn't guaranteed victory by any means. I certainly can't seem to win or do the damage I'd like to do at all lately, platooned or not.

 

If you don't give a damn about stats, why are you even here arguing with me over this? How hypocritical.

 

Bronze_Knight, on 05 February 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

I bet that if you got 7 40% win ratio people with a damage ratio of 0.75 in a room together and put them against a random team of 50-53% that couldn't talk to each other except through text chat, the 40% would win. 

 

It may be that the act of platooning, by itself, does not increase damage output; but platooning often does mean an increased level of communication between the people in the platoon.

 

And, communication, does increase damage output. (I don't have anything to back this up [barring common sense] but I would love to hear some one dispute it.)

 

I'd beg to differ. Some 40% players can't even turn correctly, let alone effectively fight as a team.

 

BearHawkMan, on 05 February 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

Lets stick to face's equation and not make this a concep roastathon.

 

Face, first off, congrats on even attempting! This is great work, and I definitely like the platoon equalizer, but I also would recommend you base this off of damage more than anything else. However, there are always going to be a few glitches in the system. If fullestnuke is the one glitch but everything else works well, I am fine with that. We can all pretty much agree fullestnuke (or dq) is the best forum player, and we don't need a rating system to rate him. But great work, keep it up!

 

I don't think either of them are. Nutellanism is obviously 10 times better than anyone I can think of. But yes, I believe it's good for Face4stas to attempt to make an original rating system. And no, I still don't agree with it.

[originalmadkilla]

Who's the highest ranked player among all player stats that are available who never platoons?

 

Whatever their winrate is, I would be suspicious of the ranking of any platoon player who has a much higher win rate than that, after adjusted for platooning.

[Serapth]

How is it hypocritical to participate in a discussion even if the outcome isn't going to effect me personally?  You ( being everyone ) are looking to create a measuring stick of personal ability.  If the unit of measure itself is completely flawed, what's the point?

 

As to the advantage gained from platooning, I think at this point you are just being willfully ignorant.  Pretty much every single person except you has admitted its an advantage, the only point of argument is the degree of advantage it gives.  

 

[Serapth]

originalmadkilla, on 05 February 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Who's the highest ranked player among all player stats that are available who never platoons?

 

Whatever their winrate is, I would be suspicious of the ranking of any platoon player who has a much higher win rate than that, after adjusted for platooning.

 

That's what I suggested earlier... Take the highest N players that platoon and their winrate.  Then take the high N players that don't.  The difference is your multiplier.

[sheriffsherman]

The platoon original platoon penalty is a bit harsh and no a good refection of reality.  I personally liked the second version better.  That said, it doesn't reflect that often when in a platoon you face other platoons nd sometimes even multiple platoons.  Maybe its just me, but it seems to happen more when you are in a platoon.  Perhaps its something that factors into the MM.  Maybe its just a bad perception on my part.  Another thing that the penalt presumes is that you are the player that's being carried in each and every battle.  I think that is a mistake.  Many times my platoonmates get killed off and i end up carrying, sometimes they carry.  Perhaps it evens out but their ought to be a way to figure that out by atleast comparing the caliber of players you most platoon with.  For example, i platoon with  handful of people that are in the 47-49%WR area.  Some i saw potential in during a game and asked them if they would like to improve, others have asked me for help.  I also platoon with ppl at my level 55% and a couple of ppl higher 57-59%.  I prefer not to platoon with players that are too much better because my stats take a huge hit.  I end up getting very little xp, and doing way less damage.  

 

I think its ironic that we are discussing a penalty for platoons as i have recently begun going solo again more often since i find it helps me boost my avg dmg and dmg ratio.  I suppose it has hurt my wr a little.  Also, tis could be a faulty perception as well, but it sure seems like the matchups are kinder when not platooned.  I get not only more high tier battles but also more battles with favorable matchups when i go solo.

[originalmadkilla]

Serapth, on 05 February 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

 

That's what I suggested earlier... Take the highest N players that platoon and their winrate.  Then take the high N players that don't.  The difference is your multiplier.

 

That sounds like a good idea! 

 

I don't have much more to add to this thread. In the end, all final decisions lie with face4stats, as he's the one making it and doing all of the work. I look forward to seeing the first version of this system when it's completed.

[BearHawkMan]

Ok, I got scientific.

 

Let's put the stats up first

 

Nut

W/R: 72.36

% of victories in a platoon: 56.7%

 

Fullest

W/R: 81.46%

% of victories in a platoon: 96.12%

 

Now let me introduce what I call the potato variable. Basically, the potato variable is your teammates in any given match. I call it the potato variable because your team often drags you down because it consists of potatoes. The best way to negate this? Platooning. When you platoon, 14% less of your team is completely random, and you may even be in TS with them. That changes a game. However, when you are on your own communication in your team almost never happens.

 

Since Nut has much less of his victories whilst platooned, he is technically the better player, because he has shown that he can handle the potato variable and carry harder, while fullest consistently uses platoonmates to keep his winrate and hasn't gotten many solo victories.. WAIT. Before you flame me about that statement, let me say something. I am basing that completely off of stats. That was all objective.  Some more stats I would like to see is the % of defeats whilst platooned, that way I can see how they perform when they aren't platooned, that would really help. So, face's system of negating platooning is actually quite smart. Now, there is one big reason why his system wouldn't work. We don't know individual performance in every platoon game. Did fullest still carry games when he platooned or did his platoon mate carry him? Or, was it evenly spread out and they used each other? Face's system isn't perfect, but it is very good for a starter system.