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naktl #41 Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:37 PM

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The difficulty with verification is that it would require WG be able to surveil your device at a fairly detailed level.

 

When you hit the "Agree" button as a player you are agreeing to contractual terms.  There is precedent that they are legally binding within the U.S. system, with respect to games specifically.  How you interpret your relationship to such a contractual agreement, consequences, morality, etc. is of course an individual matter.  The boundary conditions and rules you agree to define the game as such and in the absence of those there would be no game, or it would be radically different.  The things we call games do not exist in the absence of boundary conditions and do not function in the absence of players mutually agreeing to those boundary conditions.

 

Likewise any developer is also agreeing to certain legal and contractual conditions.  For instance, in the case of unscheduled downtime WG diligently reimburses Premium Time.  However, they are also bound in a way that makes it impossible for them to surveil your device with any specificity beyond things like client version and such.  Though it makes it very difficult to functionally implement policy about 3rd party software and I am really grateful for the clarity of the new policy, I am equally grateful that WG is not attempting to break its contract with me as a user and surveil my device, even though they might feel they have good reason to do so.

 

 

 


Edited by naktl, 16 September 2015 - 07:42 PM.

 


tlouie #42 Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:42 PM

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View Postnaktl, on 16 September 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

The difficulty with verification is that it would require WG be able to surveil your device at a fairly detailed level.

 

When you hit the "Agree" button as a player you are agreeing to contractual terms.  There is precedent that they are legally binding within the U.S. system, with respect to games specifically.  How you interpret your relationship to such a contractual agreement, consequences, morality, etc. is of course an individual matter.  The boundary conditions and rules you agree to define the game as such and in the absence of those there would be no game, or it would be radically different.  The things we call games do not exist in the absence of boundary conditions and do not function in the absence of players mutually agreeing to those boundary conditions.

 

Likewise any developer is also agreeing to certain legal and constractual conditions.  For instance, in the case of unscheduled downtown WG diligently reimburses Premium Time.  However, they are also bound in a way that makes it impossible for them to surveil your device with any specificity beyond things like client version and such.  Though it makes it very difficult to functionally implement policy about 3rd party software and I am really grateful for the clarity of the new policy, I am equally grateful that WG is not attempting to break its contract with me as a user and surveil my device, even though they might feel they have good reason to do so.

 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with surveilling your device.  These mods replace some files on your device that WoTB uses with different files.  The original files were placed on your device by WoTB the very first time it was run. 

 



Unitater #43 Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:43 PM

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Thanks to WG for finally putting out their official stance on this. However, how will they track who has this mod? I appreciate their shaming, but people won't give up an advantage just to "be good".

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Silevern #44 Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:43 PM

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Sounds cool, although if you jailbreak your device that means WG is 100% allowed to trash talk you if you approach them for bug support


Darkchlor #45 Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:49 PM

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View PostUnitater, on 16 September 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

Thanks to WG for finally putting out their official stance on this. However, how will they track who has this mod? I appreciate their shaming, but people won't give up an advantage just to "be good".

 

It's basically impossible to track the mods without invasion of privacy or surveillance.

 

But to be fair, it would've been better to just give a crystal clear standing on certain issues. Yes or no to skins. Yes or no to custom models. Yes or no to sound/ui etc.


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Bbm_14 #46 Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:50 PM

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View Posttlouie, on 16 September 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

 

It has nothing to do with surveilling your device.  These mods replace some files on your device that WoTB uses with different files.  The original files were placed on your device by WoTB the very first time it was run. 

 

 

...I could write a 'Trojan' mod'... 

 

That is why I disagree with the implement.

 

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naktl #47 Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:53 PM

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View Posttlouie, on 16 September 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

 

It has nothing to do with surveilling your device.  These mods replace some files on your device that WoTB uses with different files.  The original files were placed on your device by WoTB the very first time it was run. 

 

 

Thanks for your reply.  I am referencing the dilemma that WG has had on the PC side that equally applies to mobile devices.  You agree not to replace or alter files where such alteration gives the player an unfair advantage when you hit the "Agree" button.  (I really like their test question.)  We can ask the mods, but it seems to be the case that in the absence of someone posting a video showing that they are using a banned mod, WG has no legal way to verify or police the policy.  They need and should have the policy in any case and I am glad to see it.

Edited by naktl, 16 September 2015 - 07:54 PM.

 


tlouie #48 Posted 16 September 2015 - 08:06 PM

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View PostBbm_14, on 16 September 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

 

...I could write a 'Trojan' mod'... 

 

That is why I disagree with the implement.

 

(sorry to cross you friend)

 

No worries.  Yes,  in theory, a non malicious mod would simply replace game asset files.  A malicious trojan could masquerade as a mod and run amok.  A jailbroken or rooted device combined with an app downloaded from a questionable source is a recipe for security nightmares. 

 

View Postnaktl, on 16 September 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

 

Thanks for your reply.  I am referencing the dilemma that WG has had on the PC side that equally applies to mobile devices.  You agree not to replace or alter files where such alteration gives the player an unfair advantage when you hit the "Agree" button.  (I really like their test question.)  We can ask the mods, but it seems to be the case that in the absence of someone posting a video showing that they are using a banned mod, WG has no legal way to verify or police the policy.  They need and should have the policy in any case and I am glad to see it.

 

WG can very easily spot check certain crucial game files to verify authenticity and overwrite those files with the original as needed. 



naktl #49 Posted 16 September 2015 - 08:18 PM

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View Posttlouie, on 16 September 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

 

WG can very easily spot check certain crucial game files to verify authenticity and overwrite those files with the original as needed. 

 

Thank you for the reply,  Yes, I understand that it is technically possible and trivial.  And yet, on the PC side they are prevented from doing so.  The issue is not a technical one.  There are many, many threads on this both on the WG sites and non affiliated game sites.

 

What they can actively police are things that are calculated server side.  An example would be things that make your tank go faster.

 

WG could conceivably partner with someone like Punkbuster to institute something legal.  Thus far they have not, and this has been an issue for them for years now.

 


Edited by naktl, 16 September 2015 - 08:25 PM.

 


furicle #50 Posted 16 September 2015 - 08:20 PM

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I suspect they're hoping now the policy is in place, the worst of the furor will die down.

 

If it's still a big deal, then perhaps they'd come up with a system were modders could submit their mods for approval, and WG would start refusing to run if approved files aren't used.

Overall a big pain for them though...


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gffcom #51 Posted 16 September 2015 - 08:23 PM

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So how do you stop people from using these mods, especially if they are android users who don't need to jailbreak to use them.

                                                         

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naktl #52 Posted 16 September 2015 - 08:29 PM

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View Postgffcom, on 16 September 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

So how do you stop people from using these mods, especially if they are android users who don't need to jailbreak to use them.

 

As far as I know on the PC side you do not.  Unless they changed their policy recently WG does not even accept video proof since such proof could be staged with the intent of getting someone banned.  Apparently they will sometimes investigate via replays and such, but this seems to be more observation of play and patterns and typically does not lead to bans.  As I said, it has been an issue for them for some time.  The policy is still right and needed.

 

I am assuming that the conditions creating this dilemma n the PC side will hold for mobile devices as well.


Edited by naktl, 16 September 2015 - 08:30 PM.

 


Underdawg53 #53 Posted 16 September 2015 - 08:53 PM

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What's the penalty for not following these guidelines?

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RedBarchetta3 #54 Posted 16 September 2015 - 09:07 PM

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View PostCC_Sly, on 16 September 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

1) That stat information is available for everyone and there is already a visual representation of it in the default client with the reloading circle. All a countdown timer does is change the circle to the number that is available in that stats page. If I put it to the "test question": 

 If 2 people who have never played Blitz before, and are of equal skill level, play a 1v1 match in the same tank; if one person has the mod in question and the other doesn't, will it give an advantage to the person using the mod?

 

No, since both of the reload indicators would signal the reload at the same time. They are just visually different.

 

 

I completely disagree. When the red circle gets to the halfway point on my T30, do I have 6 seconds left, 7 seconds left? Oh, I got ammo-racked so, I need to subtract 10%, or was it 5%? The only way to know would be to memorize the reload time, which needs to be calculated based on crew skill and equipment. With that mod, calculations and memorization are moot. You know to the 10th of a second how much time is left. That's a big advantage. 

 

Glad to know that sometimes the person that killed me was using a mod (hit skins or whatever else is out there) that gave him an advantage. Makes this game a lot less stressful knowing some people aren't as good as their stats would indicate. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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pilgrim2223 #55 Posted 16 September 2015 - 09:13 PM

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If and if again WG gave us cameo skins on the next update (using silver to purchase) then the camo mod would be defunct, maybe people prefer to jail break iOS and mod for free but as said it would negate the assistance from WG and also negate the guarantee from Apple for your device.

Camo is available on the PC and XBox and I am sure will be on PS 4 when it comes out so why not Blitz?


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Spinee #56 Posted 16 September 2015 - 10:14 PM

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View PostCptCheez, on 16 September 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

 

Sly: Question about this one, since there are a few you didn't mention that I've been curious about.  I would assume both fall under the "Custom UI Elements" banner, but figured I'd ask before installing anything.

 

1) Numerical reload timer.  There is a mod that will display a countdown timer for your next round's reload.  It's basically just a numerical version of the progress circle around the Fire button and will actively count down while you reload.  Looks like this:

 

Allowed or no?

 

2) Mod that changes the way tank icons are displayed in the team lists.  There are 2 different mods that display the tanks in the upper right/left corner lists differently (blue for TDs, red for mediums, etc.).  Examples of each:

 

 

 

Allowed or no?

 

Just curious, do you have a link to the 1st mod anywhere? If so, is it for iOS or Android? I've always wanted a mod with a reload timer and seeing this got me very excited.

Edited by Spinee, 16 September 2015 - 10:14 PM.

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Red_Ping #57 Posted 16 September 2015 - 10:14 PM

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Module hit skin mods you say ? Hmmm....No wonder ! ,Let's just leave it here . :sceptic:

 

+ in my opinion Timer reload is cheating too for example if you have the circle not like you have a time let's say 3 sec in front of your eyes so you peek before it and time your shot better than the circle which you don't know how much left .


Edited by M3Taha, 16 September 2015 - 10:18 PM.

                           
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obi__wan__shinobi #58 Posted 16 September 2015 - 10:19 PM

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It's great that you responded so quickly to this issue.   Thank you.

1carburo #59 Posted 16 September 2015 - 10:25 PM

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View PostM3Taha, on 16 September 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Module hit skin mods you say ? Hmmm....No wonder ! ,Let's just leave it here . :sceptic:

 

+ in my opinion Timer reload is cheating too for example if you have the circle not like you have a time let's say 3 sec in front of your eyes so you peek before it and time your shot better than the circle which you don't know how much left .

Agree about the reload mod.. If you know your aiming time is 2 seconds, you can time your peek a boom precisely to make aim, including if you don't want to aim fully, and reload coincide. This eliminates guesswork and limits exposure time, and it would give a clear advantage.

 

I appreciate WG trying to clarify the issue, but I'm afraid this rather ambiguous policy won't do much in the way of clarifying things. Given that many people think WG hasn't implemented an enforcement mechanism, this is more about legitimacy than actual gameplay, and I fear that the ambiguity opens the door for endless arguments in the forum about what constitutes cheating. WG official policy isn't a day old and we already seem to have divided opinions on the reload timer mode.

 


Edited by 1carburo, 16 September 2015 - 10:41 PM.


CptCheez #60 Posted 17 September 2015 - 12:02 AM

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View PostRedBarchetta3, on 16 September 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

I completely disagree. When the red circle gets to the halfway point on my T30, do I have 6 seconds left, 7 seconds left? Oh, I got ammo-racked so, I need to subtract 10%, or was it 5%? The only way to know would be to memorize the reload time, which needs to be calculated based on crew skill and equipment. With that mod, calculations and memorization are moot. You know to the 10th of a second how much time is left. That's a big advantage. 

 

That's not quite how it works.  From my brief playing around with it this afternoon, the mod doesn't take into account all of those things.  All it does is time your very first reload when the battle starts, and then uses that number as a countdown for the rest of the game every time you press Fire.  It will not recalculate based on module damage, Adrenaline, etc.  So it's actually wrong in quite a few different circumstances and can get you in big trouble if you only rely on it and not the red circle.  In a damaged ammo-rack situation, for example, the timer will indicate that you are ready to fire long before you actually are.

 

View PostSpinee, on 16 September 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Just curious, do you have a link to the 1st mod anywhere? If so, is it for iOS or Android? I've always wanted a mod with a reload timer and seeing this got me very excited.

 

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