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Delta256 #41 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:43 AM

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View Postsureshot275, on 01 October 2015 - 10:40 PM, said:

 

But the chances of the full military doing something like this is very slim. At most 60% of the military would not see what is wrong in what they are doing at the least only 30% would not see what is going on and how it is wrong.

 

Yup. Tbh, a full-scale conflict in this day and age makes absolutely no sense. We'll likely (hopefully) never see anything like WWII ever again. Wars can be waged through drones and airpower, an invasion is impractical for the most part.

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_Bulldogge #42 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:44 AM

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View PostDelta256, on 01 October 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

 

Yup. Tbh, a full-scale conflict in this day and age makes absolutely no sense. We'll likely (hopefully) never see anything like WWII ever again. Wars can be waged through drones and airpower, an invasion is impractical for the most part.

You cannot control or take over a country or land you cannot step foot in.


Edited by sureshot275, 02 October 2015 - 03:46 AM.

 

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Delta256 #43 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:46 AM

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View Postsureshot275, on 01 October 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

You cannot control land you cannot step foot in.

 

Don't need to. You can do that after you render the enemy's military power negligible from the skies. We're not going to need to land on the beaches like Normandy anymore. 

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_Bulldogge #44 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:49 AM

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View PostDelta256, on 01 October 2015 - 10:46 PM, said:

 

Don't need to. You can do that after you render the enemy's military power negligible from the skies. We're not going to need to land on the beaches like Normandy anymore. 

In a case to take over America you'd have to 1. Take out the most funded military force in the world while attacking it's HOME

2. You'd have to destroy all hope for the people and kill anyone who'd fight back the hostile take over.


 

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reluctanttheist #45 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:50 AM

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The problem of gun violence is peculiar to America.  The 2nd Amendment discussion is fascinating to observe as a Canadian because our citizens seem to have far more power over our government than folks do in the USA. "Freedom" is the mantra of Americans, but the overwhelming strength of the government puts a damper on those notions to some degree.  The idea that the citizens need to carry guns to put down a government that's out of control also seems like an extremely odd motivator - will democracy at some point disappear in the USA and gun-totin' 'Muricans will put everything to rights?  Both seem like a stretch.

 

We have far fewer guns in Canada - especially fully automatics and handguns.  We have way less violent crime, too - but the notion of gun ownership as a right in not entrenched in Canada's memory as it is in the States.  We also have far less fear of our government.  Canada and the USA were created in completely different headspaces: one as a rebellion against the control of the Commonwealth, the other as an ally to it, though a century later, when England's power was waning.  Canada's simpler governmental system also provides better transparency to its citizens so that I think there is better trust in our government as well.

 

My heart goes out to the families who lost loves ones today.

 

They say Canada is North America's thinking cap.  And we're thinking, enough with the guns already.


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anonym_3ALrcwVs605t #46 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:54 AM

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View Postreluctanttheist, on 01 October 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

The problem of gun violence is peculiar to America.  The 2nd Amendment discussion is fascinating to observe as a Canadian because our citizens seem to have far more power over our government than folks do in the USA. "Freedom" is the mantra of Americans, but the overwhelming strength of the government puts a damper on those notions to some degree.  The idea that the citizens need to carry guns to put down a government that's out of control also seems like an extremely odd motivator - will democracy at some point disappear in the USA and gun-totin' 'Muricans will put everything to rights?  Both seem like a stretch.

 

We have far fewer guns in Canada - especially fully automatics and handguns.  We have way less violent crime, too - but the notion of gun ownership as a right in not entrenched in Canada's memory as it is in the States.  We also have far less fear of our government.  Canada and the USA were created in completely different headspaces: one as a rebellion against the control of the Commonwealth, the other as an ally to it, though a century later, when England's power was waning.  Canada's simpler governmental system also provides better transparency to its citizens so that I think there is better trust in our government as well.

 

My heart goes out to the families who lost loves ones today.

 

They say Canada is North America's thinking cap.  And we're thinking, enough with the guns already.

 

But you guys never really had gun rights we did. Besides, full auto has been illegal here since May 19, 1986. And it's a lot harder to get guns there and no worries about third world countries in close proximity or as neighbors to bring their [edited]across your guys borders.

_Bulldogge #47 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:54 AM

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View Postreluctanttheist, on 01 October 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

The problem of gun violence is peculiar to America.  The 2nd Amendment discussion is fascinating to observe as a Canadian because our citizens seem to have far more power over our government than folks do in the USA. "Freedom" is the mantra of Americans, but the overwhelming strength of the government puts a damper on those notions to some degree.  The idea that the citizens need to carry guns to put down a government that's out of control also seems like an extremely odd motivator - will democracy at some point disappear in the USA and gun-totin' 'Muricans will put everything to rights?  Both seem like a stretch.

 

We have far fewer guns in Canada - especially fully automatics and handguns.  We have way less violent crime, too - but the notion of gun ownership as a right in not entrenched in Canada's memory as it is in the States.  We also have far less fear of our government.

 

Canada's simpler governmental system also provides better transparency to its citizens so that I think there is better trust in our government as well.

 

And we're thinking, enough with the guns already.

 

the reason why America is falling into deep government control is the fact that no one seems to care any more. 

The only true reason to use the 2nd Amendmenth against the government  is if Government Tyranny happens which hasn't happened yet, and hopefully never will 


Edited by sureshot275, 02 October 2015 - 03:55 AM.

 

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Delta256 #48 Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:56 AM

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View Postsureshot275, on 01 October 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

In a case to take over America you'd have to 1. Take out the most funded military force in the world while attacking it's HOME

2. You'd have to destroy all hope for the people and kill anyone who'd fight back the hostile take over.

 

I was mainly talking about how any hypothetical war would be fought against any major power. Whether that's Russia, China, the US etc. I don't think we'd launch an invasion by landing a bunch of marines and tanks on the mainland in this day and age, as both of what you mentioned can be accomplished by precision air strikes via manned aircraft, off-shore missile barrages or drones, and strategic bombing. 

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_Bulldogge #49 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:01 AM

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View PostDelta256, on 01 October 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

 

I was mainly talking about how any hypothetical war would be fought against any major power. Whether that's Russia, China, the US etc. as both of what you mentioned can be accomplished by precision air strikes via manned aircraft, off-shore missile barrages or drones, and strategic bombing. 

If a war is a war against a major power there won't just be an easy way to fight it by doing it is the ways you mentioned. Major powers like the US, China, And Russia (I'm using these as an example as you did) there's more to it. Surface to air missiles, Fighter aircraft to intercept bombers. (Etc) There are many places we you need people and machinery on the ground to secure/destroy such sites.


Edited by sureshot275, 02 October 2015 - 04:03 AM.

 

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Delta256 #50 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:05 AM

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View Postsureshot275, on 01 October 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

If a war is a war against a major power there won't just be an easy way to fight it by doing it is the ways you mentioned. Major powers like the US, China, And Russia (I'm using these as an example as you did) there's more to it. Surface to air missiles, Fighter aircraft to intercept bombers. (Etc) There are many places we you need people and machinery on the ground.

 

Well obviously it wouldn't be so one-sided, but air superiority would be what decides the outcome. One could argue that WWII was won in the air with the large-scale strategic bombing runs on factory complexes, bases, cities etc. crippling the enemy's ability to fight back.

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Richie_McCaw #51 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:07 AM

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I have to admit you guys sound crazy talking about teachers carrying guns. Is America really in civil war?  

It has more to do with high powered guns then firearms as a whole.

I am in law enforcement here in Australia and we introduced gun control laws after 35 people were killed in 1996. Basically all automatic weapons are banned. All assault rifles and high powered weapons are banned.

You have to be a member of a gun club and participate in competitions to own a pistol. You have to have a licence and a gun safe inspected by police before you can own a rifle or shotgun. Ammo is always stored elsewhere.

If you have ever come under notice for family violence police take your guns. People with mental health issues can have their licence revoked.

What this means is it is much harder to acquire pistols and high powered rifles. The police know every person and house that has a firearm or access to them.

Sure criminals can get guns in the black market but they are expensive. Plus a lot of mass shootings from what I can see are young males who got an assault rifle from Wal-Mart for their birthday etc.

Imo the system in Australia leads to our low gun related homicide rates and very low mass shootings. And believe it or not most of the police in New Zealand do not even carry guns on them.

I cannot fathom the thought that people believe the answer to mass shootings is to arm more people with guns. Prevention surely has to be the most logical solution.

This video by an Australian comedian on gun control is worth watching. http://m.liveleak.co...=89d_1411198955

ErikBlack #52 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:12 AM

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Sounds like shooter was a 4channer.

_Bulldogge #53 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:14 AM

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View PostCSTCARE, on 01 October 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

I have to admit you guys sound crazy talking about teachers carrying guns. Is America really in civil war?

It has more to do with high powered guns then firearms as a whole.

I am in law enforcement here in Australia and we introduced gun control laws after 35 people were killed in 1996. Basically all automatic weapons are banned. All assault rifles and high powered weapons are banned.

You have to be a member of a gun club and participate in competitions to own a pistol. You have to have a licence and a gun safe inspected by police before you can own a rifle or shotgun. Ammo is always stored elsewhere.

If you have ever come under notice for family violence police take your guns. People with mental health issues can have their licence revoked.

What this means is it is much harder to acquire pistols and high powered rifles. The police know every person and house that has a firearm or access to them.

Sure criminals can get guns in the black market but they are expensive. Plus a lot of mass shootings from what I can see are young males who got an assault rifle from Wal-Mart for their birthday etc.

Imo the system in Australia leads to our low gun related homicide rates and very low mass shootings. And believe it or not most of the police in New Zealand do not even carry guns on them.

I cannot fathom the thought that people believe the answer to mass shootings is to arm more people with guns. Prevention surely has to be the most logical solution.

This video by an Australian comedian on gun control is worth watching. http://m.liveleak.co...=89d_1411198955

The gun laws in the US are very strict but the fact that there's a huge illegal market for guns in the US that criminals or people with mental health issues can get a gun and no one will know. This is one thing I believe needs to be inforced and delt with cracking down on illegal fire arms.


 

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MSixteen #54 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:14 AM

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View PostCSTCARE, on 01 October 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

I have to admit you guys sound crazy talking about teachers carrying guns. Is America really in civil war?

It has more to do with high powered guns then firearms as a whole.

I am in law enforcement here in Australia and we introduced gun control laws after 35 people were killed in 1996. Basically all automatic weapons are banned. All assault rifles and high powered weapons are banned.

You have to be a member of a gun club and participate in competitions to own a pistol. You have to have a licence and a gun safe inspected by police before you can own a rifle or shotgun. Ammo is always stored elsewhere.

If you have ever come under notice for family violence police take your guns. People with mental health issues can have their licence revoked.

What this means is it is much harder to acquire pistols and high powered rifles. The police know every person and house that has a firearm or access to them.

Sure criminals can get guns in the black market but they are expensive. Plus a lot of mass shootings from what I can see are young males who got an assault rifle from Wal-Mart for their birthday etc.

Imo the system in Australia leads to our low gun related homicide rates and very low mass shootings. And believe it or not most of the police in New Zealand do not even carry guns on them.

I cannot fathom the thought that people believe the answer to mass shootings is to arm more people with guns. Prevention surely has to be the most logical solution.

This video by an Australian comedian on gun control is worth watching. http://m.liveleak.co...=89d_1411198955

some school districts in Texas (go figure) have allowed some teachers who have had proper training with firing and handling weapons to keep a 9mm or something of the sort in a locked box in their desk in case something happens.

 

the idea behind arming more people so there are less mass shootings is that if somebody even TRIED it, there would be far fewer victims before somebody with a gun reacted and put the gunman down. when there ARE mass shootings in Australia, there are horrible consequences. Like in America with the "gun free" zones that are only really "gun free" if you're a law abiding citizen. then if a random madman decides it's your time to die, you have no say in the matter.


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_Bulldogge #55 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:15 AM

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View PostMSixteen, on 01 October 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

some school districts in Texas (go figure) 

I love my state <3


 

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Delta256 #56 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:21 AM

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View PostMSixteen, on 01 October 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

some school districts in Texas (go figure) have allowed some teachers who have had proper training with firing and handling weapons to keep a 9mm or something of the sort in a locked box in their desk in case something happens.

 

the idea behind arming more people so there are less mass shootings is that if somebody even TRIED it, there would be far fewer victims before somebody with a gun reacted and put the gunman down. when there ARE mass shootings in Australia, there are horrible consequences. Like in America with the "gun free" zones that are only really "gun free" if you're a law abiding citizen. then if a random madman decides it's your time to die, you have no say in the matter.

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind more guards/police on site that could react should a situation arise-- the school I went to always had a cop or two around (and this is in Canada). I don't know if arming civilians/teachers would be as effective as just employing more of those who are trained to deal with those kinds of situations. What if, for example, the gunman takes a student hostage in the room? A teacher may not be able to handle a situation like that as well as a stationed police officer. Of course, you have less coverage if you rely on just guards and police officers, but I feel it would be a better deterrent. 

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Richie_McCaw #57 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:22 AM

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View PostMSixteen, on 02 October 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

some school districts in Texas (go figure) have allowed some teachers who have had proper training with firing and handling weapons to keep a 9mm or something of the sort in a locked box in their desk in case something happens.

 

the idea behind arming more people so there are less mass shootings is that if somebody even TRIED it, there would be far fewer victims before somebody with a gun reacted and put the gunman down. when there ARE mass shootings in Australia, there are horrible consequences. Like in America with the "gun free" zones that are only really "gun free" if you're a law abiding citizen. then if a random madman decides it's your time to die, you have no say in the matter.

So the madman with an assault rifle enters the class. The teacher tells him to wait a minute whilst he finds his key, unlocks the box, gets the gun then calmly shoots an armed man in the head. Yep I can see how that is logical.

 

You are basically saying we accept there are madmen with guns and they are going to kill people. We just need everyone to have a gun to reduce the fatalities. 

 

Here we say don't let any of the madmen have access to guns in the first place.



_Bulldogge #58 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:25 AM

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View PostDelta256, on 01 October 2015 - 11:21 PM, said:

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind more guards/police on site that could react should a situation arise-- the school I went to always had a cop or two around (and this is in Canada). I don't know if arming civilians/teachers would be as effective as just employing more of those who are trained to deal with those kinds of situations. 

 

Because in some cases there aren't enough policemen to gaurd a school and also if you were raised around guns all your life like I have you'd know how to use one almost if not better than a police officer. Especially if that police officer has just recently entered the force and was from say New York and had never fired a gun or been around a gun sense he/she started training.

 

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MSixteen #59 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:26 AM

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View Postsureshot275, on 01 October 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

I love my state <3

 

yeah i lived there for 7 years. it's too damn hot. haha

 

View PostDelta256, on 01 October 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind more guards/police on site that could react should a situation arise-- the school I went to always had a cop or two around (and this is in Canada). I don't know if arming civilians/teachers would be as effective as just employing more of those who are trained to deal with those kinds of situations. What if, for example, the gunman takes a student hostage in the room? A teacher may not be able to handle a situation like that as well as a stationed police officer. Of course, you have less coverage if you rely on just guards and police officers, but I feel it would be a better deterrent. 

my school had a police officer on duty at all times during school hours, and a few cops at sporting events as well.

View PostCSTCARE, on 01 October 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

So the madman with an assault rifle enters the class. The teacher tells him to wait a minute whilst he finds his key, unlocks the box, gets the gun then calmly shoots an armed man in the head. Yep I can see how that is logical.

 

You are basically saying we accept there are madmen with guns and they are going to kill people. We just need everyone to have a gun to reduce the fatalities. 

 

Here we say don't let any of the madmen have access to guns in the first place.

 

the gun is in a locked box so some stupid kid doesn't decide to play with it like it's a toy. and i'm saying that if every teacher, or most teachers had access to a weapon, the gunman would at maximum make it into 1 classroom instead of something like 10. Teachers have time and time again shown that they will defend their students by shielding/hiding them. why not give them the ability to actually do something immediately about the threat?

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_Bulldogge #60 Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:27 AM

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View PostCSTCARE, on 01 October 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

So the madman with an assault rifle enters the class. The teacher tells him to wait a minute whilst he finds his key, unlocks the box, gets the gun then calmly shoots an armed man in the head. Yep I can see how that is logical.

 

You are basically saying we accept there are madmen with guns and they are going to kill people. We just need everyone to have a gun to reduce the fatalities. 

 

Here we say don't let any of the madmen have access to guns in the first place.

The madman won't just suddenly appear in the school with a gun. People will see the person with a gun before they enter a building if the people around the school are vigilant enough to see an assault rifle in someone's hands which in then will give a teacher enough time to get the gun loaded and ready to use against this madman.


 

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