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Why +2/-2 is terrible


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Posit1ve_ #1 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:22 AM

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After being spoiled by 2 months of +1/-1, and seeing all of the complaints, I'm here to address why +1/-1 is the better option by reviewing the individual complaints about it:

 

The only merit to +2/-2 is that you will have the opportunity to see tanks 2 tiers higher, which gives the potential for really awesome games. But for most, that's never gonna happen. Most unicums solely play tier X, so that's not an option. And those that aren't unicum aren't going to carry as a tank 2 tiers lower. Maybe once every 200 battles. 

 

1. "+1/-1 reduces the damage pool!".

No it doesn't. The average damage pool remains the same actually. The only case where +2/-2 will have greater damage pools is when you are low tier, but you won't be able to take full advantage of that increased damage pool anyway. (I know we all have sweet games as bottom tier every now and then, but they just don't happen as often), whereas in games where you are top tier, the damage pool is greater in +1/-1, where you WILL be able to take full advantage of it.

 

2. "Tier X won't be able to club on tier VIII!"

That's just being greedy. No one wants to be the poor tier VIII TD/Light that gets 1-shotted by a 183. And besides, the damage pool is greater for you tier X jerks (me included) which allows for bigger wins, and more epic masteries.

 

3. "Pref MM tanks are useless!"

Just because your IS6 cant bully those poor Jacksons and Vks anymore doesn't make it useless. Pref MM exists to prevent it from seeing tier X, which it still doesn't. Most tanks that have pref MM (Is6, JT88, AT-15A, Pm10) have it because the pen on their guns suck for their tier. They have phenomenal characteristics in every other area. Not seeing tier VI isn't going to make them worse tanks, and they still won't see the tanks they can't pen that are 2 tiers higher. And again, the damage pool is greater since tier VIIIs and VIIs are occupying the slots formerly used by VIs, and VIIs respectively, which means more credits for you!

 

4. "How the heck am I supposed to get Masteries now that I can't see tanks 2 tiers higher?"

Um... The normal way. Just get a great battle. No one else in the past 7 days will be seeing tanks 2 tiers higher either.

 

5. "The tanks are balanced for +2/-2, not +1/-1 !"

Just because you can't play super aggressive in your formerly OP obj 140 because of the greater number of tier X TDs in the battle doesn't mean its unbalanced. Tanks are balanced relative to the other tanks in their tier, not relative to what they will see. Your tank is balanced so facing tanks of its tier, it should be a fair fight. +1/-1 actually ensures that you will see tanks of your own tier more often, instead of those lopsided VK 30.02D vs. T-54 battles. And besides, there's tank rebalancing every patch, so it will all be smoothed out in the end anyway.

 

Now on to why +1/-1 is better

1. Grinding credits just got a whole lot easier.

For those of you with premiums that don't have pref MM, you won't have to curse every time you see an IS3 in your T-34-85 victory because you won't see those anymore. With +2/-2 mm, your underpowered premium tank is useless without excessive gold round use (Which eats away all your profits) 1/3 of the time. 

 

2. It promotes better play

There's a whole lot of players think that if they are in a tank facing tanks 2 tiers higher, that they can't contribute. The result? More yolos, and poor play in general from those players with that defeatist attitude. And let's not lie, even we who aren't shaking in our boots still let out a sigh of disappointment too. If they are only 1 tier lower, they are much more likely to give it their fullest effort.

 

3. Greater HP pools that you can actually take advantage of

I would much rather have a larger damage pool I can take full advantage of as a high tier tank, than one where I will be struggling to survive as a tank 2 tiers lower. Those better HP pools when you are high tier mean more XP and credits on average, especially considering that's 50% of the time. Even as a low tier, you can be more useful and rack up better numbers than if it were +2/-2.

 

4. The elimination of that MM "dead spot" at tiers V and VI.

Tiers V and VI are absolutely horrible at +2/-2. 50% of the time, you are gonna be low tier facing tanks 2 tiers higher, and 50% of the time you will see tanks 1 tier lower as a tier V, and as a tier VI, you will pretty much never be top tier. While you enjoy clubbing on tier VIIIs in your tier Xs, those poor mid-tier semi serious players (that represent the majority of the player base) are paying the price.

 

That's more or less it. If you have another complaint about +1/-1, I can probably address that too.

 


Edited by panzermk6, 17 March 2016 - 03:28 AM.

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Ksftwe #2 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:24 AM

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Sorry, but I simply disagree with you. I'm not going to launch myself into a full fledged debate either, because, unlike you, I can see there are merits and drawbacks to both systems and won't try to convince anyone either system is superior.

 

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Ryan_Dazel #3 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:25 AM

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Why -1/+1 is terrible: Tier 10 and 9 are ruined. Tanks with premium matchmaking are screwed. You can barely survive long enough in tier 10 and 9 matches to do damage.


Edited by Ryan_Dazel, 17 March 2016 - 03:25 AM.

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Posit1ve_ #4 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:25 AM

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View PostRyan_Dazel, on 16 March 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

Why -1/+1 is terrible: Tier 10 and 9 are ruined. Tanks with premium matchmaking are screwed.

 

You didn't read the post. I addressed those complaints.

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4100xpb #5 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:26 AM

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Here's the new (old) matchmaking in action.  We won.  Guess that Defender just didn't carry hard enough.

 



King6510 #6 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:27 AM

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Some people like -1/+1 and some people like -2/+2. 

 

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_JenniferAniston #7 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:27 AM

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... Another lame 1/1 cheerleading attempt.

Edited by _JenniferAniston, 17 March 2016 - 03:30 AM.


Ryan_Dazel #8 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:27 AM

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View Postpanzermk6, on 17 March 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

 

You didn't read the post. I addressed those complaints.

You just brushed over them. Tier 10 and 9 are the only tiers that matter.


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Posit1ve_ #9 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:28 AM

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View PostKsftwe, on 16 March 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Sorry, but I simply disagree with you. I'm not going to launch myself into a full fledged debate either, because, unlike you, I can see there are merits and drawbacks to both systems and won't try to convince anyone either system is superior.

 

The only merit to +2/-2 is that you will have the opportunity to see tanks 2 tiers higher, which gives the potential for really awesome games. But for most, that's never gonna happen. Most unicums solely play tier X, so that's not an option. And those that aren't unicum aren't going to carry as a tank 2 tiers lower. Maybe once every 200 battles. 

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_Wilde #10 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:34 AM

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View Post4100xpb, on 17 March 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

Here's the new (old) matchmaking in action.  We won.  Guess that Defender just didn't carry hard enough.

 

 


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r4zrbl4de #11 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:34 AM

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View Postpanzermk6, on 16 March 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

 

The only merit to +2/-2 is that you will have the opportunity to see tanks 2 tiers higher, which gives the potential for really awesome games. But for most, that's never gonna happen. Most unicums solely play tier X, so that's not an option. And those that aren't unicum aren't going to carry as a tank 2 tiers lower. Maybe once every 200 battles. 

But keep in mind that the unicums that exist now were trained under +2/-2 mm. That's where they learned to not just run out and die in the first thirty seconds, and that when they did carry a game as bottom tier, they loved the feeling and wanted to do it again. And so they got better.


 

 

 


_JenniferAniston #12 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:35 AM

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View Postpanzermk6, on 17 March 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

After being spoiled by 2 months of +1/-1, and seeing all of the complaints, I'm here to address why +1/-1 is the better option by reviewing the individual complaints about it:

 

The only merit to +2/-2 is that you will have the opportunity to see tanks 2 tiers higher, which gives the potential for really awesome games. But for most, that's never gonna happen. Most unicums solely play tier X, so that's not an option. And those that aren't unicum aren't going to carry as a tank 2 tiers lower. Maybe once every 200 battles. 

 

1. "+1/-1 reduces the damage pool!".

No it doesn't. The average damage pool remains the same actually. The only case where +2/-2 will have greater damage pools is when you are low tier, but you won't be able to take full advantage of that increased damage pool anyway. (I know we all have sweet games as bottom tier every now and then, but they just don't happen as often), whereas in games where you are top tier, the damage pool is greater in +1/-1, where you WILL be able to take full advantage of it.

 

2. "Tier X won't be able to club on tier VIII!"

That's just being greedy. No one wants to be the poor tier VIII TD/Light that gets 1-shotted by a 183. And besides, the damage pool is greater for you tier X jerks (me included) which allows for bigger wins, and more epic masteries.

 

3. "Pref MM tanks are useless!"

Just because your IS6 cant bully those poor Jacksons and Vks anymore doesn't make it useless. Pref MM exists to prevent it from seeing tier X, which it still doesn't. Most tanks that have pref MM (Is6, JT88, AT-15A, Pm10) have it because the pen on their guns suck for their tier. They have phenomenal characteristics in every other area. Not seeing tier VI isn't going to make them worse tanks, and they still won't see the tanks they can't pen that are 2 tiers higher. And again, the damage pool is greater since tier VIIIs and VIIs are occupying the slots formerly used by VIs, and VIIs respectively, which means more credits for you!

 

4. "How the heck am I supposed to get Masteries now that I can't see tanks 2 tiers higher?"

Um... The normal way. Just get a great battle. No one else in the past 7 days will be seeing tanks 2 tiers higher either.

 

5. "The tanks are balanced for +2/-2, not +1/-1 !"

Just because you can't play super aggressive in your formerly OP obj 140 because of the greater number of tier X TDs in the battle doesn't mean its unbalanced. Tanks are balanced relative to the other tanks in their tier, not relative to what they will see. Your tank is balanced so facing tanks of its tier, it should be a fair fight. +1/-1 actually ensures that you will see tanks of your own tier more often, instead of those lopsided VK 30.02D vs. T-54 battles. And besides, there's tank rebalancing every patch, so it will all be smoothed out in the end anyway.

 

Now on to why +1/-1 is better

1. Grinding credits just got a whole lot easier.

For those of you with premiums that don't have pref MM, you won't have to curse every time you see an IS3 in your T-34-85 victory because you won't see those anymore. With +2/-2 mm, your underpowered premium tank is useless without excessive gold round use (Which eats away all your profits) 1/3 of the time. 

 

2. It promotes better play

There's a whole lot of players think that if they are in a tank facing tanks 2 tiers higher, that they can't contribute. The result? More yolos, and poor play in general from those players with that defeatist attitude. And let's not lie, even we who aren't shaking in our boots still let out a sigh of disappointment too. If they are only 1 tier lower, they are much more likely to give it their fullest effort.

 

3. Greater HP pools that you can actually take advantage of

I would much rather have a larger damage pool I can take full advantage of as a high tier tank, than one where I will be struggling to survive as a tank 2 tiers lower. Those better HP pools when you are high tier mean more XP and credits on average, especially considering that's 50% of the time. Even as a low tier, you can be more useful and rack up better numbers than if it were +2/-2.

 

4. The elimination of that MM "dead spot" at tiers V and VI.

Tiers V and VI are absolutely horrible at +2/-2. 50% of the time, you are gonna be low tier facing tanks 2 tiers higher, and 50% of the time you will see tanks 1 tier lower as a tier V, and as a tier VI, you will pretty much never be top tier. While you enjoy clubbing on tier VIIIs in your tier Xs, those poor mid-tier semi serious players (that represent the majority of the player base) are paying the price.

 

That's more or less it. If you have another complaint about +1/-1, I can probably address that too.

 

 

the thing is you just liked 1/1 because your below average win rates in tier 9/10 crept up slightly to the player base average in those 2 months. 1/1 created a high tier coin toss and eventually would bring the bottom up and the top down percentages. 


Viper8757NC #13 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:35 AM

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View PostRyan_Dazel, on 17 March 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

Why -1/+1 is terrible: Tier 10 and 9 are ruined. Tanks with premium matchmaking are screwed. You can barely survive long enough in tier 10 and 9 matches to do damage.

The bolded and italicized (my bold and italics) makes no sense.  If you’re driving a tier 10 tank in a tier 10 battle, why are you not surviving long enough?  No tier 8 tanks to bully?  Maybe you should “carry harder,” since that seems to be the standard answer for all -2/+2 proponents.

 

ps.  Many thanks to the OP for taking the time to lay out a well-constructed and reasoned argument in favor or -1/+1.



Viper8757NC #14 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:37 AM

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View Postr4zrbl4de, on 17 March 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:

But keep in mind that the unicums that exist now were trained under +2/-2 mm. That's where they learned to not just run out and die in the first thirty seconds, and that when they did carry a game as bottom tier, they loved the feeling and wanted to do it again. And so they got better.

What???  :popcorn:



MSixteen #15 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:37 AM

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View Postpanzermk6, on 16 March 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

After being spoiled by 2 months of +1/-1, and seeing all of the complaints, I'm here to address why +1/-1 is the better option by reviewing the individual complaints about it:

 

1. "+1/-1 reduces the damage pool!".

No it doesn't. The average damage pool remains the same actually. The only case where +2/-2 will have greater damage pools is when you are low tier, but you won't be able to take full advantage of that increased damage pool anyway. (I know we all have sweet games as bottom tier every now and then, but they just don't happen as often), whereas in games where you are top tier, the damage pool is greater in +1/-1, where you WILL be able to take full advantage of it.

This is common sense. In +1/-1, there is more HP to do more damage with. 

2. "Tier X won't be able to club on tier VIII!"

That's just being greedy. No one wants to be the poor tier VIII TD/Light that gets 1-shotted by a 183. And besides, the damage pool is greater for you tier X jerks (me included) which allows for bigger wins, and more epic masteries.

NOT A SINGLE [CAN'T SAY IT OR I WILL GET BANNED] PERSON SAID THEY LIKED THE +2/-2 SO THEY COULD SEE -2 TANKS IN T10S. Not a 1.

3. "Pref MM tanks are useless!"

Just because your IS6 cant bully those poor Jacksons and Vks anymore doesn't make it useless. Pref MM exists to prevent it from seeing tier X, which it still doesn't. Most tanks that have pref MM (Is6, JT88, AT-15A, Pm10) have it because the pen on their guns suck for their tier. They have phenomenal characteristics in every other area. Not seeing tier VI isn't going to make them worse tanks, and they still won't see the tanks they can't pen that are 2 tiers higher. And again, the damage pool is greater since tier VIIIs and VIIs are occupying the slots formerly used by VIs, and VIIs respectively, which means more credits for you!

Not seeing T6 means they see more tanks that are a tier higher, that they struggle with. The IS-6 will see more T95s, E75s, M103s, ST-1s etc, and the T7 prem tanks will see more T28s, IS-3s, Tiger 2s etc. That means that the tanks will struggle a hell of a lot more. The gun makes the tank. With a good gun, any tank can be good. But with a trash gun, the tank can't be good. That's why the Pz.2J is crap.

4. "How the heck am I supposed to get Masteries now that I can't see tanks 2 tiers higher?"

Um... The normal way. Just get a great battle. No one else in the past 7 days will be seeing tanks 2 tiers higher either.

Nobody has ever argued that they won't be able to get masteries. If so, link it in this thread so I can go there and tell them they're stupid.

5. "The tanks are balanced for +2/-2, not +1/-1 !"

Just because you can't play super aggressive in your formerly OP obj 140 because of the greater number of tier X TDs in the battle doesn't mean its unbalanced. Tanks are balanced relative to the other tanks in their tier, not relative to what they will see. Your tank is balanced so facing tanks of its tier, it should be a fair fight. +1/-1 actually ensures that you will see tanks of your own tier more often, instead of those lopsided VK 30.02D vs. T-54 battles. And besides, there's tank rebalancing every patch, so it will all be smoothed out in the end anyway.

WG would have to rebalance every. SINGLE. Tank. In. The. Game. If they go with +1/-1. Tanks are balanced for +1/-1. The SU-100Y, for example needs to see T8s to keep it in check. Otherwise, it's unstoppable. A platoon of them can double tap everything they'll ever see besides (some) T7 heavies, and the Tog 2.

Now on to why +1/-1 is better

1. Grinding credits just got a whole lot easier.

For those of you with premiums that don't have pref MM, you won't have to curse every time you see an IS3 in your T-34-85 victory because you won't see those anymore. With +2/-2 mm, your underpowered premium tank is useless without excessive gold round use (Which eats away all your profits) 1/3 of the time. 

While on the other hand, a Vic that damages an IS-3 from the rear will be making so many more credits than he would be if it was a T7 IS. Playing the tank how it's supposed to be played means you earn more

2. It promotes better play

There's a whole lot of players think that if they are in a tank facing tanks 2 tiers higher, that they can't contribute. The result? More yolos, and poor play in general from those players with that defeatist attitude. And let's not lie, even we who aren't shaking in our boots still let out a sigh of disappointment too. If they are only 1 tier lower, they are much more likely to give it their fullest effort.

The people that get the defeatist attitude are the people that aren't able to contribute even when they're top tier, because they're bad. I'd rather have a -2 tank that sucks than a +2 tank that sucks.

3. Greater HP pools that you can actually take advantage of

I would much rather have a larger damage pool I can take full advantage of as a high tier tank, than one where I will be struggling to survive as a tank 2 tiers lower. Those better HP pools when you are high tier mean more XP and credits on average, especially considering that's 50% of the time. Even as a low tier, you can be more useful and rack up better numbers than if it were +2/-2.

But you can't take advantage of it, because the same potatoes making stupid mistakes that almost get them killed will make the same stupid mistakes and they WILL get them killed in +1/-1, so you are stuck trying to climb Mt. Everest in a light hoodie from the get go.

4. The elimination of that MM "dead spot" at tiers V and VI.

Tiers V and VI are absolutely horrible at +2/-2. 50% of the time, you are gonna be low tier facing tanks 2 tiers higher, and 50% of the time you will see tanks 1 tier lower as a tier V, and as a tier VI, you will pretty much never be top tier. While you enjoy clubbing on tier VIIIs in your tier Xs, those poor mid-tier semi serious players (that represent the majority of the player base) are paying the price.

I'd rather have a "dead spot" in tiers that don't really matter than a "dead spot" in the tiers that do. I.E. tiers 8-10.

That's more or less it. If you have another complaint about +1/-1, I can probably address that too.

 

 


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Ryan_Dazel #16 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:39 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 17 March 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

The bolded and italicized (my bold and italics) makes no sense.  If you’re driving a tier 10 tank in a tier 10 battle, why are you not surviving long enough?  No tier 8 tanks to bully?  Maybe you should “carry harder,” since that seems to be the standard answer for all -2/+2 proponents.

 

ps.  Many thanks to the OP for taking the time to lay out a well-constructed and reasoned argument in favor or -1/+1.

 

If -+1 is applied, ALL the tanks are either tier 10 or tier 9. 95% of them can pen and kill you easily. There are many tier 10s in one match and there are even full tier 10 matches sometimes. You can't carry nubs that easily. It doesn't matter if you're a good player, it's just pure chaos in -+1 MM.


Edited by Ryan_Dazel, 17 March 2016 - 03:42 AM.

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Psychopathy #17 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:40 AM

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For me it doesn't matter +2/-2 or +1/-1 or even +0/-0 BUT without a teamwork you will get a same junk result. This is a teamwork game more than 1 man show.

_JenniferAniston #18 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:44 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 17 March 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

The bolded and italicized (my bold and italics) makes no sense.  If you’re driving a tier 10 tank in a tier 10 battle, why are you not surviving long enough?  No tier 8 tanks to bully?  Maybe you should “carry harder,” since that seems to be the standard answer for all -2/+2 proponents.

 

ps.  Many thanks to the OP for taking the time to lay out a well-constructed and reasoned argument in favor or -1/+1.

 

Well boy golly gosh. Now I'm curious. What's your tier 8-10 excuse for your stats?


r4zrbl4de #19 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:45 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

What???  :popcorn:

 

does no one else love the rush of adrenaline when it's 1v3, and you come out victorious? I wanted to do that again, and that's when I decided to leave the 50% win rate behind and climb higher. That's like the whole basis of sports and jobs that people love working at. They're faced with an against-all-odds situation and come out victorious just one time, and work harder to do that again, and feel that high. Like drugs. We're all taking good, beneficial drugs :D

Edited by r4zrbl4de, 17 March 2016 - 03:55 AM.

 

 

 


Ksftwe #20 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:47 AM

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View Postpanzermk6, on 16 March 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

 

The only merit to +2/-2

 

I stopped reading there. You clearly don't understand my point. Your opinion is nothing more than an OPINION. There's a reason why we have a debate going on. If this could be refuted by facts, nobody (at least, nobody who's somewhat important) would be speaking out.

 

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