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Why +2/-2 is terrible


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MSixteen #21 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:59 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

ps.  Many thanks to the OP for taking the time to lay out a well-constructed and reasoned argument in favor or -1/+1.

half the things he argued against were things that nobody ever said. He's basically arguing with what he himself thinks


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Viper8757NC #22 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:00 AM

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View Post_JenniferAniston, on 17 March 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

 

Well boy golly gosh. Now I'm curious. What's your tier 8-10 excuse for your stats?

 

Was this thread about my tier 8-10 stats?  I forget.

 

Love your work on Friends, by the way.



Viper8757NC #23 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:01 AM

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View PostMSixteen, on 17 March 2016 - 03:59 AM, said:

half the things he argued against were things that nobody ever said. He's basically arguing with what he himself thinks

You just described 90% of the content on this forum, including your retorts up thread.


Edited by Viper8757NC, 17 March 2016 - 04:02 AM.


r4zrbl4de #24 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:06 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

You just described 90% of the content on this forum, including your retorts up thread.

 

will there be a reply to what I said :hiding:

 

 

 


_JenniferAniston #25 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:07 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 17 March 2016 - 04:01 AM, said:

You just described 90% of the content on this forum, including your retorts up thread.

 

What M16 is saying is that the OP is creating false straw man arguments and using false "Unicum" positions as a basis for his arguement.... 

 

Kinda of like if you made a post saying PC9684 think Jen Aniston is ugly and here is the top 10 reasons why Pc9684 thinks she's ugly. Then PC9684 has to argue why you are crazy point by point (1-10) when the reality is PC9684 never had those positions in the first place..... Got it?



53M1 #26 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:08 AM

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I'm getting a lot of tier 10 games without 8's. I was playing 9 and 10's the other day most of the day and it seemed fine. I was actually wondering if the top tiers weren't set up to run more balanced rounds.

MSixteen #27 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:08 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

You just described 90% of the content on this forum, including your retorts up thread.

 

You don't understand. Nobody ever said any of the "points" he's arguing against. In fact, the "points" he's arguing against are the same points the supporters of +2/-2 have specifically said are false.

He's just arguing with what he thinks we think. 


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MSixteen #28 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:10 AM

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View Postr4zrbl4de, on 16 March 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

But keep in mind that the unicums that exist now were trained under +2/-2 mm. That's where they learned to not just run out and die in the first thirty seconds, and that when they did carry a game as bottom tier, they loved the feeling and wanted to do it again. And so they got better.

View Postr4zrbl4de, on 16 March 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

 

will there be a reply to what I said :hiding:

Here's your response:
There's no need to argue with what you said, because it's true. Granted, that hasn't ever stopped many people before, but any rational person won't argue against it.


"I'm not a sore loser, l just prefer to win and when I don't I get furious." ~ Ron Swanson

"If you can't figure out how to win in tier 8 against a tier 10, you're not going to be winning in tier 10" ~ PC9684

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May my M60 and BOUGHT IS-6 Fearless forever give me bountiful harvests of whiners' salt


MSixteen #29 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:12 AM

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View Post_Semi_, on 16 March 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

I'm getting a lot of tier 10 games without 8's. I was playing 9 and 10's the other day most of the day and it seemed fine. I was actually wondering if the top tiers weren't set up to run more balanced rounds.

 

In my Connor earlier today I was top tier most of the time, so I'm guessing the 6-8 got lumped together, and the 9-10 got lumped together today while the 4-5s were being lumped together.

"I'm not a sore loser, l just prefer to win and when I don't I get furious." ~ Ron Swanson

"If you can't figure out how to win in tier 8 against a tier 10, you're not going to be winning in tier 10" ~ PC9684

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CommandoTank7 #30 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:21 AM

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View Postpanzermk6, on 16 March 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

After being spoiled by 2 months of +1/-1, and seeing all of the complaints, I'm here to address why +1/-1 is the better option by reviewing the individual complaints about it:

 

The only merit to +2/-2 is that you will have the opportunity to see tanks 2 tiers higher, which gives the potential for really awesome games. But for most, that's never gonna happen. Most unicums solely play tier X, so that's not an option. And those that aren't unicum aren't going to carry as a tank 2 tiers lower. Maybe once every 200 battles. 

 

1. "+1/-1 reduces the damage pool!".

No it doesn't. The average damage pool remains the same actually. The only case where +2/-2 will have greater damage pools is when you are low tier, but you won't be able to take full advantage of that increased damage pool anyway. (I know we all have sweet games as bottom tier every now and then, but they just don't happen as often), whereas in games where you are top tier, the damage pool is greater in +1/-1, where you WILL be able to take full advantage of it.

 

2. "Tier X won't be able to club on tier VIII!"

That's just being greedy. No one wants to be the poor tier VIII TD/Light that gets 1-shotted by a 183. And besides, the damage pool is greater for you tier X jerks (me included) which allows for bigger wins, and more epic masteries.

 

3. "Pref MM tanks are useless!"

Just because your IS6 cant bully those poor Jacksons and Vks anymore doesn't make it useless. Pref MM exists to prevent it from seeing tier X, which it still doesn't. Most tanks that have pref MM (Is6, JT88, AT-15A, Pm10) have it because the pen on their guns suck for their tier. They have phenomenal characteristics in every other area. Not seeing tier VI isn't going to make them worse tanks, and they still won't see the tanks they can't pen that are 2 tiers higher. And again, the damage pool is greater since tier VIIIs and VIIs are occupying the slots formerly used by VIs, and VIIs respectively, which means more credits for you!

 

4. "How the heck am I supposed to get Masteries now that I can't see tanks 2 tiers higher?"

Um... The normal way. Just get a great battle. No one else in the past 7 days will be seeing tanks 2 tiers higher either.

 

5. "The tanks are balanced for +2/-2, not +1/-1 !"

Just because you can't play super aggressive in your formerly OP obj 140 because of the greater number of tier X TDs in the battle doesn't mean its unbalanced. Tanks are balanced relative to the other tanks in their tier, not relative to what they will see. Your tank is balanced so facing tanks of its tier, it should be a fair fight. +1/-1 actually ensures that you will see tanks of your own tier more often, instead of those lopsided VK 30.02D vs. T-54 battles. And besides, there's tank rebalancing every patch, so it will all be smoothed out in the end anyway.

 

Now on to why +1/-1 is better

1. Grinding credits just got a whole lot easier.

For those of you with premiums that don't have pref MM, you won't have to curse every time you see an IS3 in your T-34-85 victory because you won't see those anymore. With +2/-2 mm, your underpowered premium tank is useless without excessive gold round use (Which eats away all your profits) 1/3 of the time. 

 

2. It promotes better play

There's a whole lot of players think that if they are in a tank facing tanks 2 tiers higher, that they can't contribute. The result? More yolos, and poor play in general from those players with that defeatist attitude. And let's not lie, even we who aren't shaking in our boots still let out a sigh of disappointment too. If they are only 1 tier lower, they are much more likely to give it their fullest effort.

 

3. Greater HP pools that you can actually take advantage of

I would much rather have a larger damage pool I can take full advantage of as a high tier tank, than one where I will be struggling to survive as a tank 2 tiers lower. Those better HP pools when you are high tier mean more XP and credits on average, especially considering that's 50% of the time. Even as a low tier, you can be more useful and rack up better numbers than if it were +2/-2.

 

4. The elimination of that MM "dead spot" at tiers V and VI.

Tiers V and VI are absolutely horrible at +2/-2. 50% of the time, you are gonna be low tier facing tanks 2 tiers higher, and 50% of the time you will see tanks 1 tier lower as a tier V, and as a tier VI, you will pretty much never be top tier. While you enjoy clubbing on tier VIIIs in your tier Xs, those poor mid-tier semi serious players (that represent the majority of the player base) are paying the price.

 

That's more or less it. If you have another complaint about +1/-1, I can probably address that too.

 

 

Please read it all, i adress everything that many of us +2/-2 supporters believe

 

1. Games 2 tiers lower are a challenge and I love them. In addition to that, people many times ignore tanks 2 tiers lower allowing you to rack up monster dmg. Lastly 2 tiers down forces u to play smart and frankly you should place up top of the results if you take advantage. My victory sees so many tier 8 matches and many many of those I've still held the top spot. Being -2 is not a handicap its an opportunity

 

2. FOR THE LAST TIME THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT ARGUMENT DAMMIT. THE POINT IS THAT WITH TIERS 10,8,9 YOU DONT HAVE 7 TIER 10 GUNS TO DESTROY YOU IN THE FACE EVERY TIME YOU MOVE AN INCH OR TRY TO DO ANYTHING MILDY INTERESTING. THATS THE ARGUMENT. 

 

3. Preff mm tanks were sold on preff mm, because of this they are easier to make money in and are a break from bad teams and uneven matchmaking streaks. Who cares if people club in them or not, their main purpose is to CREDIT GRIND. Honestly I think its easier to win at tier 9 at times than any preff mm tank. 

 

4. Masteries have nothing to do at all with +1/-1 or +2/-2 matchmaking and should not even be in this post. Its completely irrelevant.

 

5. Oh really? Because +1/-1 was incredibly unbalanced, all I saw were bully tanks taking advantage of NOTHING to fear and playing like donkeys. Tanks such as the IS,3, KV1S, KV1,2,3,4, Comet (OMG COMET), T34-85, T43, T44,  Stug, and many more. +2/-2 has perfect balance.

 

Ok now these ones

1. Once again you make 0 sense at all. Being two tiers down allows you to make MUCH MORE because of the dmg possibilities. I've had many games with profits over 100k in the victory, even with some apcr (but hey you don't even need much prammo if you know how to flank.)

 

2. This is an utter lie and you know it and so does anyone else who preaches this about +1/-1. The player base during the experimental mm got WORSE. Why, because players didnt need to learn how to flank, how to shoot at weakspots, circle, sidescrape, angle, etc. Why? Because it was all too easy. The player base got worse than it was and many of you preach about "oh the player base needs to improve" meanwhile you support something that made it worse -_-.

 

3. Once again this is not true, being 2 tiers down allows for many opportunities to rack up monster damage and us unicums that support +2/-2 have learned to take advantage of being 2 tiers lower. And everything aside if its your struggle at staying alive that sways your thought, that's your fault. Learn to conserve HP and stay alive. I've learned a lot already and am constantly learning how to avoid taking dmg, my almost 53% survival is proof. Yours and many others who use this point are around 32%.

 

4. Tier 5 and 6 as "dead spots" are ok. They are mid tiers where anything happens, people have no idea what they are doing and tiers where players who are smart can enjoy successfully by reaping the rewards of being two tiers down, for example my tier 6 t34-85 victory, at a 72% winrate. Your argument is invalid. And it is much better than ruining the tiers that really matter, 8,9,10. Not because of the low tiers to "club on" NO. AS STATED ENDLESSLY, it is so 7 tier 9,10 guns don't blast your tier 9,10 tank in the face anytime you do anything mildly interesting.

 

I hope this sheds light on why unicums prefer +2/-2. Nothing personal buddy, just needed to get this out and may actually make a thread myself about this response.



Viper8757NC #31 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:32 AM

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View PostMSixteen, on 17 March 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

 

You don't understand. Nobody ever said any of the "points" he's arguing against. In fact, the "points" he's arguing against are the same points the supporters of +2/-2 have specifically said are false.

He's just arguing with what he thinks we think. 

 

Nobody complained about the IS-6 losing its preferential MM during the 2 months of -1/+1?! 
Please don’t make me compile a list of all of those threads.



Viper8757NC #32 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:34 AM

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View PostMSixteen, on 17 March 2016 - 04:12 AM, said:

 

In my Connor earlier today I was top tier most of the time, so I'm guessing the 6-8 got lumped together, and the 9-10 got lumped together today while the 4-5s were being lumped together.

Really nice video, by the way.  And a great carry on second game.



JayRizzi #33 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:36 AM

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I don't really want to argue, and I normally do not post on the forums anymore, however your post drew me out.

I simply disagree fundamentally with almost everything you attempted to do with your post. From constructing your argument using flawed logic and attempting to pursuade readers by using more common language it simply makes you look as though you did not spend much time making your post, when based on the formatting I would like to belive you did give it a second look. Not only does this topic also appear to be a responce to another board posted here on the merits of the +\- 2, by being the negatives of it( but you failed).That other board succeeded because of a well constructed argument on an original topic, while also admitting their bias while not (really) letting it cloud their message. By using ""s, it detracts from the overall authenticity of your post, because those quotes are not genuine, and are literally the most extreme possible example of the topic you are arguing. It's almost like I opened this to read, and somehow got forwarded to CNN. Bias all over the place, while attempting to claim neutrality.

Overall, all the arguments you made are either false, invalid, irrelevant or lacking the viewpoint from the other side (or even really addressing it besides the random out of context "quotes").

I do not even want to address anything you said, because the way you worded some of the points makes me sad, and wonder where education went on persuasive writing. By responding to each quote asthough it were an argument posted to you and using language/writing as such, it shows you are more a blogger than someone who can legitimately 'respond to all arguments reguardling the cons of +/- 1 mm'. If you want people to genuinely respond to your post and converse, do not do almost everything you did in that message.

Again, please just read this and consider the message I am saying for future posts of yours. I'm not looking for an argument, just critiquing your post (unapologetically) as a work of writing because it was so incorrect I was compelled to do so.
-No quotes in your argument
-Genuinly try to make pros/cons for both sides
-Admitt bias early & attempt to erase it
-If your post is a direct responce to another board, post in on there
-Do not use random CAPS to draw attention
-Use correct grammar
- Don't use random or unrealistic statistics/information
- Remember there is no correct answer! Your post is an opinion! You cannot claim to be correct when there are pros and cons for both sides!

Have a nice day. :-)

CommandoTank7 #34 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:39 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

You just described 90% of the content on this forum, including your retorts up thread.

 

This was an accidental +1 by me, obviously. Just wanted to clear that up. And wow people on this website are so blind sometimes.

Viper8757NC #35 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:51 AM

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View Post_JenniferAniston, on 17 March 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

 

What M16 is saying is that the OP is creating false straw man arguments and using false "Unicum" positions as a basis for his arguement.... 

 

Kinda of like if you made a post saying PC9684 think Jen Aniston is ugly and here is the top 10 reasons why Pc9684 thinks she's ugly. Then PC9684 has to argue why you are crazy point by point (1-10) when the reality is PC9684 never had those positions in the first place..... Got it?

 

First, I would never create a thread about Jennifer Aniston being ugly.  That’s a fools errand.
*As an aside, I am a little more than curious about the rather familiar reference you use for Ms. Aniston (Jen?  Color me intrigued).

 

Second, I’m pretty familiar with informal fallacies.  So, I ‘got it.’

 

Third, the OP contained some arguments that have been proffered by -2/+2 proponents.  Honestly, how many “my IS-6 sucks under -1/+1" threads did we endure during the -1/+1 experiment?  Too many to count.  Also, there were several honest souls that fessed up to enjoying tier 10 play under -2/+2 because they got to “stomp” tier 8 tanks.  Anyone claiming otherwise is simply being dishonest with his/herself.

 

Finally, I preferred -1/+1, but am more than fine with the return of -2/+2.  I bet my Obj. 140, E-50, and E-75 stats--all tanks started under -1/+1--will benefit a bit from stomping tier 8 and 7 tanks, respectively.

 


Edited by Viper8757NC, 17 March 2016 - 04:52 AM.


_JenniferAniston #36 Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:58 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 17 March 2016 - 04:51 AM, said:

 

First, I would never create a thread about Jennifer Aniston being ugly.  That’s a fools errand.
*As an aside, I am a little more than curious about the rather familiar reference you use for Ms. Aniston (Jen?  Color me intrigued).

 

Second, I’m pretty familiar with informal fallacies.  So, I ‘got it.’

 

Third, the OP contained some arguments that have been proffered by -2/+2 proponents.  Honestly, how many “my IS-6 sucks under -1/+1" threads did we endure during the -1/+1 experiment?  Too many to count.  Also, there were several honest souls that fessed up to enjoying tier 10 play under -2/+2 because they got to “stomp” tier 8 tanks.  Anyone claiming otherwise is simply being dishonest with his/herself.

 

Finally, I preferred -1/+1, but am more than fine with the return of -2/+2.  I bet my Obj. 140, E-50, and E-75 stats--all tanks started under -1/+1--will benefit a bit from stomping tier 8 and 7 tanks, respectively.

 

 

I'm PC. Simple funny analogies make for better understanding and good humor. 

 

We we get defensive because we want the 1/1 advocates to stop using straw man arguments that are untrue and force us to respond to provide the truth. That said, you are right, our attention then does not get focused on addressing any other topic that may have truth. 

 

And now you have had a lesson in "politics."



MSixteen #37 Posted 17 March 2016 - 05:05 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

 

Nobody complained about the IS-6 losing its preferential MM during the 2 months of -1/+1?! 
Please don’t make me compile a list of all of those threads.

 

Ok... many of his points he argued he made up himself.

View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

Really nice video, by the way.  And a great carry on second game.

thank you


"I'm not a sore loser, l just prefer to win and when I don't I get furious." ~ Ron Swanson

"If you can't figure out how to win in tier 8 against a tier 10, you're not going to be winning in tier 10" ~ PC9684

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May my M60 and BOUGHT IS-6 Fearless forever give me bountiful harvests of whiners' salt


MSixteen #38 Posted 17 March 2016 - 05:25 AM

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View PostViper8757NC, on 16 March 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

 

First, I would never create a thread about Jennifer Aniston being ugly.  That’s a fools errand.
*As an aside, I am a little more than curious about the rather familiar reference you use for Ms. Aniston (Jen?  Color me intrigued).

 

Second, I’m pretty familiar with informal fallacies.  So, I ‘got it.’

 

Third, the OP contained some arguments that have been proffered by -2/+2 proponents.  1.)Honestly, how many “my IS-6 sucks under -1/+1" threads did we endure during the -1/+1 experiment?  Too many to count.  Also, there were 2.)several honest souls that fessed up to enjoying tier 10 play under -2/+2 because they got to “stomp” tier 8 tanks.  Anyone claiming otherwise is simply being dishonest with his/herself.

 

Finally, I preferred -1/+1, but am more than fine with the return of -2/+2.  I bet my Obj. 140, E-50, and E-75 stats--all tanks started under -1/+1--will benefit a bit from stomping tier 8 and 7 tanks, respectively.

 

1.) Yes. The premium MM tanks get shafted with the +1/-1 mm, because they have to fight more tanks that are at the upper limit of what they would normally engage. This cannot be argued.

2.) Who? Lemme at 'em, because they're morons. That's not the reason you should be wanting +2/-2. And that's not the reason anybody who's any good at the game likes +2/-2


"I'm not a sore loser, l just prefer to win and when I don't I get furious." ~ Ron Swanson

"If you can't figure out how to win in tier 8 against a tier 10, you're not going to be winning in tier 10" ~ PC9684

 Click here for The Art of Blitz Click here for my YouTube channel!

May my M60 and BOUGHT IS-6 Fearless forever give me bountiful harvests of whiners' salt


ChitFromChinola #39 Posted 17 March 2016 - 05:28 AM

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View PostMSixteen, on 16 March 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

 

In my Connor earlier today I was top tier most of the time, so I'm guessing the 6-8 got lumped together, and the 9-10 got lumped together today while the 4-5s were being lumped together.

 

Tough going today for me in the Conner against Tier 7s. At only 600 HP, one wrong move, and you're instantly blown to pieces. I held my own today in that funky tank, but not in the Tier 7 battles. Couldn't find a way to hide, shoot, and survive on some maps -- especially the new ones.

conrad07277 #40 Posted 17 March 2016 - 07:58 AM

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MM say what!!!




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