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the art of shooting High Explosive [HE]

High explosive HE HESH

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Darth_Gerbil #21 Posted 04 October 2016 - 11:55 AM

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Very good article.  Well worth the 5 minutes it takes to read.  Thank you.

TengenToppaPotatoLagann #22 Posted 04 October 2016 - 05:52 PM

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View Postawesomeplayer9690, on 03 October 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

Too long didn't read. Please make the guide shorter.

 

1. buy IS-6

 

not sure how much shorter the guide is going to get, but i tried. 


>>>canine prints have claw marks, yet "mans best friend" camo does not; it would seem then that mans best friend is a cat... probably a leopard.

View Postminitel_NA, on 13 January 2018 - 03:06 AM, said:

when I’m tired I think I’m good.


sweet1emotion #23 Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:30 PM

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View PostBorisBaddenov, on 03 October 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

 

As I scrolled and scrolled and scrolled.. I thought to my self .. .I wonder if this is a good guide.  

 

Then I got to the bottom.. and said to my self .... Nope, it is way too long.  Noobs, who needs this guide, will not bother to read a novel to find out that there are times when they need to switch ammo types.

 

It is probably a very good guide - but so long that I didnt even try to read it.

 

 

I read it...I'm gonna carry more HE!!



sweet1emotion #24 Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:32 PM

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It amazing how lazy people are?? To long to read?? Wow

MonkFish24 #25 Posted 04 October 2016 - 09:09 PM

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I got to the part that says HE doesn't bounce! In wotblitz world HE bounces! I had one bounce the other day,so I stopped reading there.

Sarge1234_defender #26 Posted 04 October 2016 - 11:27 PM

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Nice, I always carry HE and one shotted hellcat

 



minitel_NA #27 Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:43 AM

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View PostMonkFish24, on 04 October 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

I got to the part that says HE doesn't bounce! In wotblitz world HE bounces! I had one bounce the other day,so I stopped reading there.

 

 

Crew messages are not accurate. They have a limited set of them. And some events will trigger some messages, regardless if it makes sense or not. When you shoot AP and it makes zero damage to the enemy, but it damages some optics your crew will say, "another one like that will finish them". Because it considers some damage has been made. How smart is this ?

 

If you hit a tank but that it fails to do any damage it will trigger "that one bounced" message by default, but in fact it didn't necessarily bounce. The message is triggered by a hit without damage, but the game doesn't carry more precise crew messages.

 

When AP fails to penetrate, it will ricochet. This is bouncing : it will continue its path until it reaches another tank to damage, some map element, or exit the limit of the map.

 

On the other hand, HE explodes on contact, and it will never continue anywhere. In the case the armor is too thick and no module takes damage, the armor will absorb the splash damage, resulting in zero damage. That's the red areas in the game hitskin. Then your crew will say that one bounced, but in fact it has not. It just failed to do damage.

 

 

 

 


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OKAwesome #28 Posted 05 October 2016 - 02:14 PM

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This is a fantastic guide and pulls together a lot of information that's out there.  I had a very good grasp of how HE works but I still did learn a few things, like shooting the edge of a strongpoint that's next to a weakpoint for splash damage.

 

One note to the OP - on the Blitz hit-skin, little details such as tools and decorations always appear grey, but shooting them will not actually penetrate.  Also - spaced armor, like tracks bolted onto the front of a tank or the sides of an IS3 also show as grey.  That doesn't mean an HE shell will penetrate. 


OKAwesome

Duke_87 #29 Posted 05 October 2016 - 06:43 PM

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Two questions:

1) Is an HE shell into tracks ensure track damage, or is there still some formula to apply?

2) I assume splash damage is away from the point of contact, spreading outwards? For example, if I have a very lightly armored tank hiding around a corner, but almost at 90 degrees out from me, and I hit the ground right in front of him with an HE shell (right by the corner), I assume the splash pattern will be straight back and miss the tank. ?? I assume the splash pattern is determined by the angle of incidence...?


 

TIA


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minitel_NA #30 Posted 05 October 2016 - 08:58 PM

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View PostOKAwesome, on 05 October 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

This is a fantastic guide and pulls together a lot of information that's out there.  I had a very good grasp of how HE works but I still did learn a few things, like shooting the edge of a strongpoint that's next to a weakpoint for splash damage.

 

One note to the OP - on the Blitz hit-skin, little details such as tools and decorations always appear grey, but shooting them will not actually penetrate.  Also - spaced armor, like tracks bolted onto the front of a tank or the sides of an IS3 also show as grey.  That doesn't mean an HE shell will penetrate. 

 

about penetrating tools and decoration, hanging track elements, etc...

 

the game uses several sets of models, and that is a typical behind the hood of video games. however it has a lot more impact on a tank game, than say on a racing game.

 

1- the rendering model(s)

it is located on your device and is used by the device to display your game. it shows fancy tools, logs, cables, external gas tanks and other artifacts, but they are decoration only, just in fact like the entirety of the rendering model.

the rendering model actually has several variations with decreasing levels of details to be used as the tank is viewed from further and further away, this to optimize usage of your device's graphic capacity. You tend to pay attention at things that are close and in the foreground.

 

the collision model

It is the only "real" model. this model is held server side. The server will determine with this collision model if you drove into a rock or another tank, and especially if a shot has hit or missed, and based on the collision model geometry and local armor specs, if that AP shell should bounce or penetrate, etc...

 

Sometimes, some of the extra gears shown on the rendering model will be emulated on the collision model, a particular example is the track elements on the nose of the IS3. those tracks elements being thick cast steel would (marginally) affect penetration.

However in most cases, even things with major visual influence like mudguard or big external stow away box (containing crew effects, tents, tools and camo nets) wouldn't affect an incoming shell in anyway in reality,  and more important, have no existence in the collision model. 

They don't exist for the server, therefore they cannot be penetrated or cause damage. they have no value in the gameplay.

 

 

finally

I love that particular example below, but most tanks have various degree of differences between your device's rendering model and the server's collision  model.

This is why it is important when aiming to keep in mind how the server model is actually made, to avoid shooting void decorations, and to aim into weak parts that might be hidden by decoration.

 

 

example : Panther M10

obviously from http://armorinspector.com/en/webapp

 

this is how you see a panther M10 in game (with a very good hardware PC, in blitz it is just a much lesser detailed version)

Posted Image

(full size pic)

 

this is how is the armor of that Panther M10 is when you shoot at it.

Posted Image

(full size pic)

 

notice the completely different turret ?

notice the mudguards disappear ?

notice that rear overhangs are much shorter ?

notice that the upper front plate is actually further back ?

notice the lower front plate is entirely different ?

notice how the track elements on the side increase (slightly) the armor thickness ?

etc...

 

Panther M10 were Panther tanks modified by the Wehrmacht to confuse the allied forces by faking the look of american M10 wolverine tank destroyers.

it was achieved by adding .8 mm steel plates in various places, (compare the 0,8 mm appliqué with the 85mm/45mm of the front plate and side turret plate)

so on this tank, the front plate, lower glacis rear overhangs, and turret sides, are fake appliqué panels, and you can discern them if you look closely at the HD model above.

 

all those plates have no armor value and will not impact an incoming shell, and under some angles you may shoot them and miss the actual tank.

IMO they could have been given a spaced armor value, and detonate HE and heat away from the main armor, but WG apparently decided differently and maybe they do know better.

 

 


Edited by minitel_NA, 05 October 2016 - 09:34 PM.

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minitel_NA #31 Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:05 PM

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View PostDuke_87, on 05 October 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

Two questions:

1) Is an HE shell into tracks ensure track damage, or is there still some formula to apply?

 

1) yes HE ensures track damage, even though a single shot might not manage to break the track, you may need two shots (provided it's not repaired in between)

  • when a shell arrives upon a module, each module has a specific chance of receiving damage.
  • fortunately tracks receive damage 100% of the time.
  • now the damage receive needs to account for 100% of that module damage pool for it to stop functioning. 
  • that's where HE is efficient : tracks usually needs several AP shots (depending on alpha obviously) to eat through their hitpoints, and if you miss ever slightly, no damage is done to the track. but HE is guarantee damage even if you shoot nearby, and if you hit, it will take out more hitpoints than if hit with AP
  • so to answer specifically your question yes HE ensures track damage, even though maybe not a single shot completely broken track. 
  • now modules indicators do not show modules HP. they dont even show if they have lost some HP. they only show an orange icon if they go below 50%, and become "critically damaged" or malfunctionning and red icon if they are 0% hp, i.e. completely broken.
  • therefore as soon as a module is orange, you should shoot at it right away : here is your chance of ammorack, track, etc...

 

 

you can simulate it in armor inspector if you want .

 

Posted Image

info panel says, tracks hit 100%

 

though armor inspector doesn't detail modules shots with HE (at this point), mechanics of module failure is the same :

Posted Image

in the info panel :

T43 tracks will receive damage 100% of the times, but on first shot it only has 43% chances of failure

and will break for sure only after two shots :/

however the gas tanks will need at least three shots to have 60% chances of failure (and fire)

and ammorack is too far

you can also see the modules hp and how much damage your shot will make (remember rng +- 25 % applies)

 


Edited by minitel_NA, 04 August 2017 - 08:46 PM.

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minitel_NA #32 Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:27 PM

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[/img]

View PostDuke_87, on 05 October 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

Two questions:

1) Is an HE shell into tracks ensure track damage, or is there still some formula to apply?

2) I assume splash damage is away from the point of contact, spreading outwards? For example, if I have a very lightly armored tank hiding around a corner, but almost at 90 degrees out from me, and I hit the ground right in front of him with an HE shell (right by the corner), I assume the splash pattern will be straight back and miss the tank. ?? I assume the splash pattern is determined by the angle of incidence...?


 

TIA

 

the shell travels in a straight line. but upon explosion, the splash reaches anything in a sphere, regardless if there is a house in between. It wont miss anything.

 

the good old days of fail toon in mblitz MM+-2 and the huge majortroller (2 year old material...)

 

and the solution was of course to shoot HE:

 

 

I remember a better video where the maus pushes the MS-1 inside a house but I can't find the link.


Edited by minitel_NA, 06 October 2016 - 10:35 PM.

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Duke_87 #33 Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:04 PM

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But the video isn't clear on exactly what the splash pattern is. Are you saying when you shoot HE and it hits something (say the flat ground out in front of you), it still explodes in a symmetric sphere? It doesn't splash out in a cone from the point ofg impact?  And the splash goes THROUGH solid barriers like a wall?

 

Thanks :)


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minitel_NA #34 Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:20 AM

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View PostDuke_87, on 06 October 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:

But the video isn't clear on exactly what the splash pattern is. Are you saying when you shoot HE and it hits something (say the flat ground out in front of you), it still explodes in a symmetric sphere? It doesn't splash out in a cone from the point ofg impact?  And the splash goes THROUGH solid barriers like a wall?

 

Thanks :)

 

Sphere

Upon impact with anything (anything of the server collision model which might differ slightly from the rendering visual model on ur screen, remember ?) the shell doesn't exist anymore. It creates a sphere in which radius anything damageable will be affected, and the damage will diminish with distance in all directions. So in effect, a sphere.

that means you can damage several objects with one single HE ammo, or even kills two tanks, or kill through an object, or shoot the ground to da,age a tank behind a corner, etc...

just remember, the bigger the gun, the larger the radius. 76mm won't hurt much. 183 will.

 

Cone

now upon direct impact upon a tank, all the above is true. But if there is penetration, another mechanism creates a cone inside the target tank, along the path, and that cone will inflict potential damage to any module it includes. That's better than AP, which only affect modules within its straight path. A cone will potentially affect more modules.

Later, like quickly exposed in a few posts above here, chances of actual damage and quantity of damage inflicted to the module and outcome state of the damaged module depends on specs and RNG.

 

I hope I'm more precise this time and that it makes sense.


Edited by minitel_NA, 07 October 2016 - 12:21 AM.

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OKAwesome #35 Posted 07 October 2016 - 03:05 AM

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Right minitel you explained it much better than I. When I said shooting at a shovel on a tank 'wont penetrate' I meant it wasn't part of the collision model and it's not a weak spot in the armor. Your original guide post suggested you could shoot these and penetrate with HE.
OKAwesome

minitel_NA #36 Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:01 PM

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View PostOKAwesome, on 07 October 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

Right minitel you explained it much better than I. When I said shooting at a shovel on a tank 'wont penetrate' I meant it wasn't part of the collision model and it's not a weak spot in the armor. Your original guide post suggested you could shoot these and penetrate with HE.

 

and I thought I was over detailing !

but great questions and remarks everyone.

I will read again and see if I can squeeze clarifications regarding the recent questions.

I also want to promote a bit more the importance of relocating and aiming, which are not important for prammo but crucial for HE

 

... when I have motivation :/

 

 

 


Edited by minitel_NA, 08 October 2016 - 07:44 PM.

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minitel_NA #37 Posted 08 October 2016 - 07:48 PM

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I just added a part in the guide about killing two enemies with one shot (formerly known as a bombardier's medal)

 

http://forum.wotblit...-he/#Kill2birds


Edited by minitel_NA, 16 October 2016 - 07:03 PM.

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minitel_NA #38 Posted 16 October 2016 - 07:01 PM

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I just added some part about curved trajectory and shooting over an obstacle, which are specific to HE and low velocity shells.

 

http://forum.wotblit...-he/#trajectory


Edited by minitel_NA, 16 October 2016 - 07:03 PM.

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VonMiller58 #39 Posted 16 October 2016 - 08:37 PM

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Read it this morning, nice stuff OP....already had a good grasp of the HE because I cycle thru ammos when using slower reload guns and I view the different hit zones/weak points.

 

Really only started using it well the last month or so...with amazing results.

 

Guns with High HE pen are devastating for me now....

 

Just lit a fire in the soft spot of a M46Patton for 1327HP and he was still burning when teammate put him down...with the borsig

 

Same game HE bomb onto back of the Tier 9 British tank for 1048 and he died seconds later

 

If you play TDs it is essential for max damage and if you play lights it can make the difference in a dogfight......really a huge part of the game as you have shown with the amazing review.

 

 

Some guns are begging for HE...got a Tier 5 SU85i and it has a huge HE pen like the RU251...your doing yourself a disservice if you don't shoot HE at times with them and many others....and "don't knock it...its Cheap"


Edited by VonMiller58, 16 October 2016 - 08:37 PM.

o...:...:I:...:...o

    ..58..58..


ford_hamilton #40 Posted 19 October 2016 - 07:03 PM

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Enjoyed the guide. Hope nobody else reads it; I want the advantage!







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