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Clan Ethics: Unite Against Poachers


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_Jackpot_ #41 Posted 09 November 2016 - 09:49 PM

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View Post_34, on 09 November 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

in total agreement here jdm. poaching is wrong and there should be a mutual agreement between clans not to do so.

 

to poaching clans, take a look at XPD and MERC. they're gone. and you may soon follow suit.

 

View PostTommy_S, on 09 November 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Poaching is sort of like asking someone's girlfriend for some hanky-panky, ya know? Her/them being loyal isnt the major issue, its the part that you asked them. Attempting to take players is a really [edited] move towards the clan (or boyfriend in the metaphor) , regardless of whether the members are loyal or not. 

 

View PostCausticFlames, on 09 November 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

DFNT's in. take my word for it

 

View PostJellotree76, on 09 November 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

 

Backing what JDM said. If a player from our says "Hey, I saw a clan I think I want to join" and leaves us to join them, then more power to them. The issue lies with a clan actively trying to solicit members from other clans through initial and direct communication.

 

 

View PostDarkest_Flame, on 09 November 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Now that I know the whole story, +1 to the whole 501ST family for bringing this issue to light.

 

View PostPixelBucket, on 09 November 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

 

View Postlookedsquirrel7, on 09 November 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

 

You don't seen to understand, oftentimes when poaching occurs there is a form of diatribe or libel/slander that occurs and can in turn spread false rumors and make clans lose prestige. It goes further than just recruiting.

 

View PostTheChattaHooligan, on 09 November 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

I know that this issue in particular (what I've seen screenshots and hearsay about) is that the person is giving false information, like saying, "Your leader said this about you... want to leave him for something better?" and that is immoral and wrong. I personally would confront either Xjs, Anon____ or whoever directly if this happened, but some people don't want to be confrontational about it. It's more than just poaching, it's disrespecting and trying to destroy a clan.  That's what the problem is.

 

View Post_stealy, on 09 November 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Lol so that's why yourworstnightmare1 left GRIM to join PNCR. 

 

Did you give him a warchest or something? :child:

 

View Postslayer2261, on 09 November 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

 

We all know which clan commander does that to recruit.....

 



AmmorackedIS6 #42 Posted 09 November 2016 - 09:59 PM

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View PostBorisBaddenov, on 09 November 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

 

Well then - the "complaint" then should not be about poaching - it should be about someone spreading false information with the intent of getting players to switch clans.

 

Big difference in my opinion.  By complaining about "poaching" - I am getting the impression that 501 is not a fun place to be.  Because if it was - nobody would leave the clan.  Now that you've explained it, my impression has changed.

 

But for a while there I was really looking at 501 - and asking my self - "What internal problems do you have that is making your members leave".   It also seems as if only one player from 501 left?  

 

Feels like 501 just needed to start some forum Drama :)

 

Peace-

Boris

Boris,

 

player poaching and employee poaching are two similar practices. Now, while there have been large amounts of poaching reports, only 3(I think) have left. We're looking at a 10% success rate. Now, only 2% of our clan has left in this case. Clearly the majority are not feeling the pull to leave. Looking at a number of ex-501 and current 501 who have been targeted, they've been offered leadership positions as a reward for joining. This draws interesting corollaries to XPD which had similar benefits for joining.

 

maybe you don't have a problem with it, that's the nature of subjective things like the perception of ethics. I do though, and I feel that I have strong reasons to feel that way.

 

Drama? Not the intent. More as a friendly PSA(hence why I kept my previous topic anonymous)

 

View Post__tianshi__, on 09 November 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

It's really not. The 501 guys are just too butthurt about a few players leaving.

You're in the self-proclaimed wrong here bud. YOU said it was unethical on multiple occasions. You have no ground to stand on.


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TexaninSteelTown #43 Posted 09 November 2016 - 10:02 PM

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View PostZennobaka, on 09 November 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

This is like the 2nd or 3rd 501st poaching thread... Just go out and say what clan is poaching instead of making these vague anti-poach threads. 

 

Maybe this is from a clan poacher?

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dayton07277 #44 Posted 09 November 2016 - 10:40 PM

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View PostZennobaka, on 09 November 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

This is like the 2nd or 3rd 501st poaching thread... Just go out and say what clan is poaching instead of making these vague anti-poach threads. 

I know I'm not qualified as a good player.but I do have a few marbles in my head.so my suggestion would be,yes Name and shame with absolute proof,screen shot many conversations post all. This is not a violation IMHO.and it puts the poachers on notice for all to see.no rebuttals can refute hard facts.



Spectora #45 Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:31 PM

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Lol Shawk. You've amplified all the numbers. So I have 9 sports available in my clan, why would I want to fill it up with 57%ers instead of 60%ers who ACTUALLY QUALIFY??? Let's say I messaged 10 people, which is a lot more realistic than 30. Then I would have a 30% success rate. I wouldn't message anyone who's not on my friends list :)

Spectora #46 Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:32 PM

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Too much butthurt 501 on this thread. To a point where they're amplifying numbers by 3-4x the actual amount

Spectora #47 Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:33 PM

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And I've got some confessions from an ex-501DV player, who was poached to go join there in the first place ;) hypocrites

Spectora #48 Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:35 PM

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Now, Imma just leave it there and sliiiddeeee. Could've just messaged me personally about the issue. However, the brain dead people at 501 decided to outpour this onto the forums. What a joke, y'all need to focus on inside issue first, and understand why players are leaving . Thanks for the debate and the trump like advertisement!!

Spectora #49 Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:35 PM

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Good luck out there and I hope y'all do great. Lol

Zennosha #50 Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:40 PM

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View Post__tianshi__, on 09 November 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Now, Imma just leave it there and sliiiddeeee. Could've just messaged me personally about the issue. However, the brain dead people at 501 decided to outpour this onto the forums. What a joke, y'all need to focus on inside issue first, and understand why players are leaving . Thanks for the debate and the trump like advertisement!!

 

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Edited by Zennobaka, 09 November 2016 - 11:41 PM.

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CelticVoivod #51 Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:50 PM

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Well... 

'Poaching' eh? I don't poach. I invite. If a player wants to join us after an invitation then they are either looking for something better or are not happy where they are. If they don't want to join, that's fine. They just have to say so, because guess what... they are not property. They are people with free will. Quite a few of Kronos' current players were from invites. And they are happy. Several players have been approached and some have left.  Am I bitter? No. I have no claim over another human life. Recently a very well known clan invited one of my guys. I don't care. If he wants to join them, up to him. And I have no ill will towards the 'poachers'. I have a lot of respect for 501 as I am friends with several of their members but I totally disagree with this post. 


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_stealy #52 Posted 10 November 2016 - 12:22 AM

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View Post__tianshi__, on 09 November 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

He wasn't in GRIM, he had his own clan. 

 

​Lol the "BROS" whatever clan?

 

He has been in GRIM for a long time. He only left recently and made that one man clan. Then a few days later, he has a PNCR tag. 



jensen215_ #53 Posted 10 November 2016 - 03:42 AM

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Just to repost my argument from Discord.

 

Ok, I personally have a problem with the negative look on the so-called poaching. If they only ask and the member wants to try it out that's fine as that's the members choice. It's how you keep the clans competitive for members and it's a real world practice. However, if there are promises of gold and that's what causes them to change then it is more of a clan members loyalty brought into question. I would only consider it poaching if there is either threat brought about or false promises made. I know it sucks to lose a clan member but it should push officers to see what they can do to prevent it from happening again and how to improve.

 

Articles Related For Suggested Reading

http://www.money-zin...loyee-poaching/ - A legal definition and quick breakdown of employee poaching

http://www.humanreso...ployees-ethical - What is considered ethical and also a bit about anti-competes, also when is it unethical which has a stronger bearing on this conversation.

 

Although my argument is irrelevant if you consider clans to be more like a familial organization or a nation state versus a business
 
 
 
I personally, do not have a policy encouraging the practice but I do some basic recruiting in the game (usually if they have shown interest in joining a clan) and in other ways such as the forums.

 

 


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Spectora #54 Posted 10 November 2016 - 04:17 AM

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View Post_stealy, on 10 November 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

 

​Lol the "BROS" whatever clan?

 

He has been in GRIM for a long time. He only left recently and made that one man clan. Then a few days later, he has a PNCR tag. 

What's wrong with a PNCR tag? I remember a 1 game scrim vs GRIM. You guys won by 300 HP.



Fishy_ #55 Posted 10 November 2016 - 05:02 AM

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View Post__tianshi__, on 09 November 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

What's wrong with a PNCR tag? I remember a 1 game scrim vs GRIM. You guys won by 300 HP.

 

I don't think you understood his point...

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Darkest_Flame #56 Posted 10 November 2016 - 01:26 PM

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View Post__tianshi__, on 09 November 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Lol Shawk. You've amplified all the numbers. So I have 9 sports available in my clan, why would I want to fill it up with 57%ers instead of 60%ers who ACTUALLY QUALIFY??? Let's say I messaged 10 people, which is a lot more realistic than 30. Then I would have a 30% success rate. I wouldn't message anyone who's not on my friends list :)

 

I'm not on your friend's list, but you messaged me about whether or not I'd like to join...........

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xjs #57 Posted 10 November 2016 - 02:22 PM

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I think there are a couple issues at play here.  

Many clans have known each other for years and and in many cases have formed friendships between leaders, or at least a minimum level of respect for one another.  So, you see a line drawn between those clans and those that are actively trying to recruit other players.  Those "old" clans (not iii old :P), have had this gentlemen's agreement for a long time.  

For example, I respect Jensen and IMPR.  I've never messaged any of his players saying "hey, Imperium sucks, you should come to Thunderstorm," just as I've never heard of any Imperium player messaging a Thunderstorm player and saying the same thing.   More and more players are getting random messages from other clans that insult their current clan and invite them to join something "better."  Respect is a two way street, and right now these new clans aren't earning any.  For some of us, we're even to the point of referring recruits to one another.  "Hey, we're full at the moment, but I'll PM 501st and put in a good word for you, if you're interested."

 Of course no player is property and they are free to move around.  Does it suck from a clan lead perspective, absolutely.  But, you move on.  It's all in how it's handled.  Be respectful.

If I were a new clan lead, there's no way I'd attempt at poaching people. No only does it tick off people that can help you (all these old clans), you're building the foundation of your clan on people with little loyalty. How loyal will those people ever be if they are willing to drop another clan to join yours?  From the member's perspective, why will your leader respect you if they were willing to give you a sales pitch when you were a member elsewhere? Clans that start this way are usually on a 6 month cycle till people leave again and they collapse, as we've seen in the past.

People will come to your clan based on the merits of it.  Bonus, they'll actually want to be there without a bunch of false promises or heavy handed sales pitches.  If people aren't coming...look in the mirror to figure out why.

 


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CelticVoivod #58 Posted 10 November 2016 - 02:31 PM

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Does the bit below my signiature qualify as pre-emptive poaching? An 'open invitation', if you like.

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xjs #59 Posted 10 November 2016 - 02:39 PM

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View PostCelticVoivod, on 10 November 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

Does the bit below my signiature qualify as pre-emptive poaching? An 'open invitation', if you like.

 

Most people view it as who initiates the contact.  If someone comes to you and says "I'm interested" then by all means, have at it.  It's like having a for sale sign in your car.  You're not stopping everyone in the parking lot as they get into their cars trying to tell them your car is better.   You let someone contact you.

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Ookla_the_Mok #60 Posted 10 November 2016 - 06:10 PM

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View Postjdm7, on 09 November 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

There is a sudden spike in poaching within our Blitz community.  There is an unwritten understanding among the top clans on the NA Server that poaching is not tolerated.  So what is poaching?

 

If a player from another clan makes initial contact with your clan showing interest in joining based on your reputation or recruiting thread, that is not poaching.

 

If instead of being patient and growing your clan through your recruiting page, in-game stats and reputation within the community, you choose to initiate the conversation and actively pursue and recruit players from other top clans to join your clan: you are a poacher.

 

I ask the other reputable clan leaders within the community to join the 501st Family in our commitment to not poach, and our stance against poaching clans.  Poaching clans are not welcome on our Teamspeak server.  They choose to hit the easy button instead of doing things the right way, and their Bush League tactics reflect poorly on their clan and the players within their clan.

 

:honoring:

 

IMHO, the strong feelings about poaching grow out of a misplaced and harmful military culture baked into the clans by many players. It is a game and players should view clans as an opportunity to have camaraderie and friendships. The emphasis should be on fit rather than dogmatically building rosters.

 

Poaching is foolish to me because I believe players should always be free and welcome to move in search of the best fit for them and how they play the game, how they spend their time in this environment, etc. If a player's leaves a clan, good luck to them and I hope they find a clan that works for them. I wouldn't ever urge a player to leave their clan for mine (or anyone else's) as I maintain the player should be considering their situation, not me.

 

For the larger clans that have multiple groups of 50, there is no reason they cannot use the different divisions to have slightly different flavors. Have competitive guys that emphasize that identity, fine, embrace it. Have guys that want to mess around as a diversion from real life and don't worry about stats, fine.... and on and on. What is your clan built on? If it is built on stats and faux-military stuff, then you should accept all of the headaches that follow. If your clan is built on the same vibe as buddy-cop movies, then you can fully encourage player's inside and outside of your clan to seek out the right fit for them... without recriminations or hostility or anxiety.

 

TL;DR: Let people find what works for them, don't worry too much about movement, stay true to your core identity, have fun, this isn't the military.






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