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Mediums are Being Nerfed - Supertested on January 4


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ARC_FIVES #301 Posted 05 January 2017 - 06:51 PM

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Just give us 2/2 mm back

 

 

 


glass2707 #302 Posted 05 January 2017 - 06:53 PM

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View Post4100xpb, on 05 January 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks medium tanks shouldn't be able to reliably penetrate the front of Tier X heavies?  :hiding:

 

Only if that is the reality why wouldn't everyone just play heavy tanks?  



ruggs225 #303 Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:05 PM

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View Postglass2707, on 05 January 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

 

Only if that is the reality why wouldn't everyone just play heavy tanks?  

 

bc it is more fun to flank and surprise them with shots in the rear and sides... kinda boring just sitting face to face trading shots

lancestallion #304 Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:08 PM

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View Post4100xpb, on 05 January 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks medium tanks shouldn't be able to reliably penetrate the front of Tier X heavies?  :hiding:

 

There is nothing reliable about trying to pen the front of a properly hull down (IS 7) or angled (e100) heavy tank.

cheasesteak #305 Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:11 PM

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I don't recall a T-44 being able to reliably pen the front of a properly handled KV-4 or IS-X, but I don't see any shortage of T-44s at tier 8.

Edited by cheasesteak, 05 January 2017 - 07:11 PM.


glass2707 #306 Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:17 PM

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View Postruggs225, on 05 January 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

 

bc it is more fun to flank and surprise them with shots in the rear and sides... kinda boring just sitting face to face trading shots

 

These targets can turn right?  Then what?  This is more rhetorical.  You don't want heavies to be damaged by mediums in the front.  While side and rear shots are possible generally speaking there are many circumstances when they are not.  Mediums should just be mostly worthless then?

 

By nerfing mediums they are declaring that mediums are overpowered.  Based on what? If you take overall tank stats for tier X medium tanks are the bottom 5.  The best any of them do is middle of the road.  Are they talking about the upper echelons of gameplay?  They might have an argument there, but some transparency would be nice.  It's not like those that excel with mediums are bad in heavy tanks.    



ruggs225 #307 Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:27 PM

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View Postglass2707, on 05 January 2017 - 07:17 PM, said:

 

These targets can turn right?  Then what?  This is more rhetorical.  You don't want heavies to be damaged by mediums in the front.  While side and rear shots are possible generally speaking there are many circumstances when they are not.  Mediums should just be mostly worthless then?

 

By nerfing mediums they are declaring that mediums are overpowered.  Based on what? If you take overall tank stats for tier X medium tanks are the bottom 5.  The best any of them do is middle of the road.  Are they talking about the upper echelons of gameplay?  They might have an argument there, but some transparency would be nice.  It's not like those that excel with mediums are bad in heavy tanks.    

 

why ahould heavy's armor be worthless if it is their best asset? Why should they be usless. 

 

mediums best asset should be mobility not their gun. And yes russian mesiums are overpowered. They have good guns, mobility and good armor. In essence they are the perfect tanks hence every supwr unicum and wanna be uniccums use them or try to grind them immediately. WG is tryig to rebalance the game to make all tanks have strengths and weaknesses but they are starting at the top with the most OP tanks. This will probably be the first pf a series of changes. 

 

And even with the nerfs mediuma will not be useless. It will just be a little more challenging.

 



glass2707 #308 Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:51 PM

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View Postruggs225, on 05 January 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

 

why ahould heavy's armor be worthless if it is their best asset? Why should they be usless. 

 

mediums best asset should be mobility not their gun. And yes russian mesiums are overpowered. They have good guns, mobility and good armor. In essence they are the perfect tanks hence every supwr unicum and wanna be uniccums use them or try to grind them immediately. WG is tryig to rebalance the game to make all tanks have strengths and weaknesses but they are starting at the top with the most OP tanks. This will probably be the first pf a series of changes. 

 

And even with the nerfs mediuma will not be useless. It will just be a little more challenging.

 

 

What you are describing might fit your perception of things, but it is not accurate.  Heavy armor works.  It does not work perfectly.  Which is why on average heavies out perform mediums.  Where is your evidence that refutes this?



ruggs225 #309 Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:04 PM

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Heavy armor does not work.. u can pen the front easily and reliably without prammo. U shouldnt be able to on a medium. u should need to flank and get around the enemy. Not fight heavy's dead on and even win with face hugging  tactics in a medium bc u have great pen and dpm. Let alone great turret armor on russian meds.

 

i only think the russian meds need a nerf, not all mediums. And i think in the end we will see only the russian meds getting a significant nerf. but right now it is undeniable that russian mediums are severly overpowered. Hence why so many unicums use them and why the twister cup basically featurdled them. People are not going to gravitate towards bad tanks. You dont see people lining up to play the emil, bc it sucks. U see people line up to play russian meds bc they are op



glass2707 #310 Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:40 PM

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Repeating the same thing isn't providing evidence.  Heavy armor does work if put in the right situations.  You can argue that it should be more effective than it is.  Though what is the evidence of that?  Heavy tanks outperform medium ones overall.  It's the lack of speed that prevents most of them from being used in tournaments.  DPM is a factor to some extent but the mobility is the bigger issue.  If your team has too many slow tanks they can be too slow to react and can be out of the fight for too long.

dimzzy #311 Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:41 PM

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Just read "lone tank" section here: http://en.m.wikipedi...le_of_Raseiniai

 

That's what heavies should look like and not what we have in Blitz.



_Crusader6_ #312 Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:50 PM

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Okay for interests sake lets look at the data on tier X tanks.

Tank WR SR Avg DMG
Grille 15 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 49.67 35.9 1982
Jagdpanzer E 100 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 48.39 36.36 1951
E 100 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 47.93 35.85 1799
Maus (Tier 10)      
Median value is 50 39.08 1775
E 50 Ausf. M (Tier 10)      
Median value is 48.61 29.17 1784
Leopard 1 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 47.9 28.49 1712
STB-1 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 50.61 33.71 1885
FV215b (183) (Tier 10)      
Median value is 48.52 34.52 1991
FV215b (Tier 10)      
Median value is 49.12 31.45 1910
FV4202 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 48.09 28.35 1725
T110E3 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 50.53 38.05 1993
T110E4 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 49.74 34.81 2019
T110E5 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 47.87 31.86 1756
T57 Heavy Tank (Tier 10)      
Median value is 52.04 36.78 2058
M48A1 Patton (Tier 10)      
Median value is 46.22 26.11 1610
M60 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 50.52 30.77 1650
Object 263 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 52.96 35.57 2004
Object 268 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 48.65 33.02 1930
IS-4 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 50.36 37.76 1875
IS-7 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 49.08 35.87 1816
Object 140 (Tier 10)      
Median value is 50.25 31.76 1811
T-62A (Tier 10)      
Median value is 48.05 27.73 1650

 


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_Crusader6_ #313 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:02 PM

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So taking that data and sorting the WR into types.

 

TD avg 49.78

Heavy avg: 49.49

Med avg: 48.78

 

Based on the data - Mediums need a BUFF in WOTB.

 

 

 


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Dark_Magician_Girl #314 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:13 PM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 05 January 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

So taking that data and sorting the WR into types.

 

TD avg 49.78

Heavy avg: 49.49

Med avg: 48.78

 

Based on the data - Mediums need a BUFF in WOTB.

 

 

 

 

WG read this! Please!  He just did math for you!  Let's use the brains God gave you and cancel any possible nerfs.

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ruggs225 #315 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:15 PM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 05 January 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

So taking that data and sorting the WR into types.

 

TD avg 49.78

Heavy avg: 49.49

Med avg: 48.78

 

Based on the data - Mediums need a BUFF in WOTB.

 

 

 

 

i know you're better than just using averages without taking into account the number of players. Please tell me u didnt just avg the avgs

4100xpb #316 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:16 PM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 05 January 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

 

WG read this! Please!  He just did math for you!  Let's use the brains God gave you and cancel any possible nerfs.

 

Yes, because conclusions based on incomplete and biased data are so much better than the ones using the full dataset.  :facepalm:

_Crusader6_ #317 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:18 PM

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Solution.

 

1) Like schematic posted, fix the maps.

2) teach folks how to play.

 

The ONLY time that Mediums are OP is in OP players hands, nerfing Mediums simply because great players can dominate in them is useless, as the less skilled players will get ruined worse in Mediums.

   OP Players will then play heaviums, and ruin folks in them.

This will create a vicious circle of nerfs until a tier 4 TD will be able to wreck a tier X tank...

(okay maybe I went a little to far, but I was trying to clearly illustrate the effects of frivolous nerfs with no data to back them up)

 


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Dark_Magician_Girl #318 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:18 PM

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View Post4100xpb, on 05 January 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

 

Yes, because conclusions based on incomplete and biased data are so much better than the ones using the full dataset.  :facepalm:

 

The thread is mainly about tier x meds.  He gave the averages of every tier x med. I don't really see how you could get more complete than that.  Just saying honey.

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_Crusader6_ #319 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:19 PM

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View Postruggs225, on 05 January 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

 

i know you're better than just using averages without taking into account the number of players. Please tell me u didnt just avg the avgs

 

Sigh - you want weighted averages now.

 

One sec


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4100xpb #320 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:20 PM

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View Postruggs225, on 05 January 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

 

i know you're better than just using averages without taking into account the number of players. Please tell me u didnt just avg the avgs

 

I did a # of battle weighted comparison of WR and DPB for Tier X mediums and heavies, and that still shows heavies as being better, based on the averages.  But the numbers are close, well within a standard deviation for both.  :child:

 

The bigger problem is we are looking at a small sample of the complete data and a sample that is generally accepted to be biased.  You simply can't draw conclusions about what tanks perform better generally from the public sources as they are focused around a specific type of player.  :D






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