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Mediums are Being Nerfed - Supertested on January 4


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ruggs225 #321 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:22 PM

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View Postglass2707, on 05 January 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

Repeating the same thing isn't providing evidence.  Heavy armor does work if put in the right situations.  You can argue that it should be more effective than it is.  Though what is the evidence of that?  Heavy tanks outperform medium ones overall.  It's the lack of speed that prevents most of them from being used in tournaments.  DPM is a factor to some extent but the mobility is the bigger issue.  If your team has too many slow tanks they can be too slow to react and can be out of the fight for too long.

 

The obj and especially the t54 outperform alot of tanks overall going by the numbers. Those nerfs are completely justified and frankly long overdue. The stb seems to be overprrforming as well. Also its impossible to pull up numbers since the game is constantly changing. Best numbers to use are probably last 30 days. Bc with every update the meta does and will change. Numbers from pre -2/+2 are completely irrelevant now. Numbers from old maps are irrelevant etc. numbers can and will lie. WG i assume has much better numbers and data than we can ever hope to see



4100xpb #322 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:22 PM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 05 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

 

The thread is mainly about tier x meds.  He gave the averages of every tier x med. I don't really see how you could get more complete than that.  Just saying honey.

 

It's not an average of every tier X med.  It's an average of certain players performance in those tanks.  And who those players are matter, sweetie pie.  :coin:

_Crusader6_ #323 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:34 PM

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Okay so with weighted avg

 

TD WR:

49.45644 Weighted Avg

 

Heavy WR:

 

49.21695 Weighted Avg

 

Med WR:

48.52375 Weighted Avg

 

 

 

Geez Meds REALLY need a buff now...


 

 
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ruggs225 #324 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:34 PM

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My entire point here is that the data we have is completely incomplete, and frankly outdated. Woth every update new variables are being added or metrics changed so old data becomes irrelevant for the most part. Especially now when u add in new mm and new game modes. 

 

Data needs to be isolated and we are not able to do it. Ut those ar WG can. They can look at all tanks with 100% crew being played in timeframe x under such and such parameters and see what is actually taking place... using wotbstars or blitztars is nice but it is not a complete data set not is the data an accurate reflection of the game today.

 

if i play a tank from 50% crew with stock everything and grind my way my nymbers will sure as heck be worse than if i golded the crew and free xped the tank. Howver using wotbstars or blitzstars the data is treated exactly the same... however the data isnt... and the data isnt refreshed on those sites either. Playing a tank such as the m48 patton pre buff and post is completely different.

 

sorry to ramble but i hope this makes sense

 

oh and as a disclaimer, i think that some TDs need to get nerfed as well at tier x.



BobboEvans #325 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:36 PM

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Here's a thought.  If you're really good and don't favor the nerfs, don't drive the affected tanks during the test.  This will skew the Results down and will decrease or eliminate the final decision to nerf.

Just say 'NO' to Vanity


_Crusader6_ #326 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:38 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 05 January 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

Here's a thought. If you're really good and don't favor the nerfs, don't drive the affected tanks during the test. This will skew the Results down and will decrease or eliminate the final decision to nerf.

 

Test is not in players hand, but for those on the test servers...

 

 


 

 
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_Crusader6_ #327 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:43 PM

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View Postruggs225, on 05 January 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

My entire point here is that the data we have is completely incomplete, and frankly outdated. Woth every update new variables are being added or metrics changed so old data becomes irrelevant for the most part. Especially now when u add in new mm and new game modes. 

 

Data needs to be isolated and we are not able to do it. Ut those ar WG can. They can look at all tanks with 100% crew being played in timeframe x under such and such parameters and see what is actually taking place... using wotbstars or blitztars is nice but it is not a complete data set not is the data an accurate reflection of the game today.

 

if i play a tank from 50% crew with stock everything and grind my way my nymbers will sure as heck be worse than if i golded the crew and free xped the tank. Howver using wotbstars or blitzstars the data is treated exactly the same... however the data isnt... and the data isnt refreshed on those sites either. Playing a tank such as the m48 patton pre buff and post is completely different.

 

sorry to ramble but i hope this makes sense

 

oh and as a disclaimer, i think that some TDs need to get nerfed as well at tier x.

 

It is the best data we have.

 

Not sure Facestar can queue data from the API by Update - but that would be interesting to see if tank performance dramatically changed over a broad spectrum of the player base after buff's and nerf's.    

 

Interestingly my M48 data did not change in the 100 games pre-buff, to 100 post buff.  Avg Dmg and WR within a very small difference (2245 avg dmg, to 2225 avg dmg, and 64 WR to 63).   

 

The E100 nerf from last year clobbered my E100 WR and avg damage.   I only play it for anniversaries now.

   

 

 


Edited by __Crusader6__, 05 January 2017 - 09:44 PM.

 

 
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ruggs225 #328 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:48 PM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 05 January 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

 

It is the best data we have.

 

Not sure Facestar can queue data from the API by Update - but that would be interesting to see if tank performance dramatically changed over a broad spectrum of the player base after buff's and nerf's.    

 

Interestingly my M48 data did not change in the 100 games pre-buff, to 100 post buff.  Avg Dmg and WR within a very small difference (2245 avg dmg, to 2225 avg dmg, and 64 WR to 63).   

 

The E100 nerf from last year clobbered my E100 WR and avg damage.   I only play it for anniversaries now.

   

 

 

 

i know it is the best data we have, and i am grateful we have it. I just know its not a full data set and isnt the be all end all of data.

 

I know i loved my panther m10, but now its useless! 

 

Also not trying to pick a fight with u, just wanted to point out the limitations of the data we have. I love ya triarii folk


Edited by ruggs225, 05 January 2017 - 09:50 PM.


_Crusader6_ #329 Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:58 PM

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View Postruggs225, on 05 January 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

 

i know it is the best data we have, and i am grateful we have it. I just know its not a full data set and isnt the be all end all of data.

 

I know i loved my panther m10, but now its useless! 

 

Understood.

 

I do believe that based on data the ONLY tier X tank that needs a nerf is the Obj-263 YoloWagon.

 and that the E100 and T110E5 could use buff's

 

That is simply taking WR, SR and Avg Dmg into account on all the tanks.

 

.

 

 

 


 

 
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ruggs225 #330 Posted 05 January 2017 - 10:02 PM

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View Post__Crusader6__, on 05 January 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

 

Understood.

 

I do believe that based on data the ONLY tier X tank that needs a nerf is the Obj-263 YoloWagon.

 and that the E100 and T110E5 could use buff's

 

That is simply taking WR, SR and Avg Dmg into account on all the tanks.

 

.

 

 

 

 

wish my e5 got a buff.. all it really neads is the tumor to be removed. 

 

havent played the others so i cant comment. Though from experience the 183 could use a nerf i think.



Dark_Magician_Girl #331 Posted 05 January 2017 - 10:02 PM

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View Post4100xpb, on 05 January 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

 

It's not an average of every tier X med.  It's an average of certain players performance in those tanks.  And who those players are matter, sweetie pie.  :coin:

 

View Post__Crusader6__, on 05 January 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

Okay so with weighted avg

 

TD WR:

49.45644 Weighted Avg

 

Heavy WR:

 

49.21695 Weighted Avg

 

Med WR:

48.52375 Weighted Avg

 

 

 

Geez Meds REALLY need a buff now...

 

Looks like I'm still right? :coin:

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Ole_sniper #332 Posted 05 January 2017 - 10:58 PM

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To all those claiming "heavies are obsolete at higher tiers"-do you know why heavies fell out of favor over time?

Because there were historical advances in munitions, allowing guns with small calibers to negate the thickness of heavy armor.

The time period of these advancements came during the post World War 2 era. Most high tier mediums represent these developements in gun and drivetrain design. The most extreme example of this is the Leopard- which was designed during a time when RHA was considered obsolete against HEAT rounds-until the advent of composite armor, which WoT doesn't cover.

So, I think that without completely twisting history, heavies cannot become the "perfect machine" which many believe them to be, and that it makes sense for mediums to dominate at high tiers. We all know how powerful heavies are at low tiers, which are representative of World War 2 and the interwar period. The real problem, IMO, are the camping TDs which will delete you in a second without any drawbacks other than long reloads, which are easily negated by massive alpha.


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4100xpb #333 Posted 05 January 2017 - 11:21 PM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 05 January 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

 

 

Looks like I'm still right? :coin:

 

Nope, looks like you still don't understand the problem.:bush:

_Crusader6_ #334 Posted 05 January 2017 - 11:55 PM

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View PostOle_sniper, on 05 January 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

To all those claiming "heavies are obsolete at higher tiers"-do you know why heavies fell out of favor over time?

Because there were historical advances in munitions, allowing guns with small calibers to negate the thickness of heavy armor.

The time period of these advancements came during the post World War 2 era. Most high tier mediums represent these developements in gun and drivetrain design. The most extreme example of this is the Leopard- which was designed during a time when RHA was considered obsolete against HEAT rounds-until the advent of composite armor, which WoT doesn't cover.

So, I think that without completely twisting history, heavies cannot become the "perfect machine" which many believe them to be, and that it makes sense for mediums to dominate at high tiers. We all know how powerful heavies are at low tiers, which are representative of World War 2 and the interwar period. The real problem, IMO, are the camping TDs which will delete you in a second without any drawbacks other than long reloads, which are easily negated by massive alpha.

 

The Leo was actually based on mobility - and the expectation of low yield tactical nuclear devices, and larger scale nuclear exchange.

 

Armor lessons learned in WWII and post war focused on Mobility, and the understanding as rockets etc advanced that one can always build a bigger bomb.

 

Look at the Maus -- it was a DEFENSIVE tank (oxymoron), it couldn't travel to the battle...

   It was never envisioned as a true armored warfare tool - but a pillbox to stem Allied advances.

 

 

The historical approach however is irrelevant with Blitz -- the key is to look at the avg tank performance.

   Despite everyone whining about the maps flattening hurting TD's - statistically the heavies took the biggest hits, BUT still Win more even at high tiers than meds.

  The reason for this is the average player is a clueless oxygen thief, a heavy that can bounce shots, or a TD that can derp someone out of the game do better for these players.   

 Meds have a higher skill base to know how to exploit their capabilities.

   So until WG fixes the player base with decent player education (likelihood never) Mediums will never average out better than the other types, but less than stellar players will continue to complain about OP Meds.

 

 

 


 

 
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_Duncan_Idaho_ #335 Posted 06 January 2017 - 05:47 PM

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So, I posted earlier in this thread with more in depth thoughts on the issue, but I have now just purchased my OBJ 140. My other two tier X meds are the 48 and 4202. . . I have 13 games in the 140 so far and here are my win rates:

 

48      47.71% with 327 battles 22% survival

4202  55.65% with 115 battles 24% survival

140    69.23% with 13 battles 46% survival

 

Arguably, I am a better player now than when I got the 48 (my first X), but I did feel somewhat invincible on the battlefield in my 140. Anecdotal I know, and the data set of 13 battles is much too small, but my first impression is the 140 is like driving an American T32 cement head with a crazy fast reload and almost leopard like mobility. I could easily pad my stats by playing this tank exclusively. 

 

That said, once I exposed my hull, every other hit would damage my ammo rack, so that weakness is definitely a compromising factor.


 

 


glass2707 #336 Posted 06 January 2017 - 06:31 PM

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View Postruggs225, on 05 January 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

 

The obj and especially the t54 outperform alot of tanks overall going by the numbers. Those nerfs are completely justified and frankly long overdue. The stb seems to be overprrforming as well. Also its impossible to pull up numbers since the game is constantly changing. Best numbers to use are probably last 30 days. Bc with every update the meta does and will change. Numbers from pre -2/+2 are completely irrelevant now. Numbers from old maps are irrelevant etc. numbers can and will lie. WG i assume has much better numbers and data than we can ever hope to see

 

Those are valid points but I am one who wants to see the evidence.  I have seen countless examples of people making numbers mean what they want them to mean rather than what they actually say to have blind faith in anyone.



ruggs225 #337 Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:04 PM

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View Postglass2707, on 06 January 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

 

Those are valid points but I am one who wants to see the evidence.  I have seen countless examples of people making numbers mean what they want them to mean rather than what they actually say to have blind faith in anyone.

 

if u go on blitz stars and look at each server stats u would see that the obj and stb are consistently in the top 6 for WR... so they probably do need a nerf. Interestingly the t-62a is always one of the lowest. 

 

But again all these stats sites are flawed bc it looks at all the data from select players only. It counts data from each patch the same and there is no way to filter it... basically these stats would be bery hard to love or change bc the dample aize is So large. Unfortunately most of the data is irrelevant bc the game has changed so much and even some of the tanks have changed so much.

 

I would love to see only the 30 and 60 day data for each tank. That data to me is much more relevant than the data from 2014 and 2015


Edited by ruggs225, 06 January 2017 - 07:05 PM.


glass2707 #338 Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:08 PM

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If the data has changed recently then the cause would seem to be more related to changes in maps as was discussed earlier.

ruggs225 #339 Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:23 PM

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Im not arguing that the map doesnt have anything to do with that, but its probably easier to fix tanks than fix maps. Also i really do think they want to rebalance everything bc tier 8 is a mess... but to rebalance that tier u need to rebalance all. Unfortunately they inteoduced a whole mess of changes at once so it is hard to isolate... ie mm changes, provisions, map changes, tank changes, new tanks being addded etc. 

 

if the whole goal is to rebalance the game u need to start somewhere. And ther is nothing to say that they wont rebalance tds, heavys lighta etc. after it. And also we still, or at least I, dont know how much the changes are and what they will finally be.



Dark_Magician_Girl #340 Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:47 PM

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View Post4100xpb, on 05 January 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

 

Nope, looks like you still don't understand the problem.:bush:

 

Why don't you tell me the problem honey?  He just gave you what you asked and it still shows that meds have lower WR.

 

Actually no, don't waste my time. I don't even want to hear it


Edited by Dark_Magician_Girl, 06 January 2017 - 07:49 PM.

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