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Type 61: A Case Study

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BobboEvans #21 Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:36 PM

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View Postminitel_NA, on 02 October 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

 

then in that view I guess the benefit is not that I win. 

It’s that I spend less time grinding and struggling.

Fighting with my anckles in concrete and my knuckles bare.

Something that I used to like about this game, but that I will spare myself from now on.

It’s really about time and fun. Not about an individual game outcome,

which is what I call “pay to win”.

Let's be honest.  If I was driving the stock Type 61 and consistently winning, it wouldn't be painful or frustrating at all.  It's the winning that removes the pain and frustration.  That's what people pay for (mostly).  It's also the other stats, sure, but mostly the winning is what your brain wants.  Yes... we're saying the same thing. 


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cheasesteak #22 Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:40 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 02 October 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

For me, it was 5% win rate and 477 avg DPG as I noted in the OP.  That's fact and not a guess.  I would characterize that as a 'significant' increase... not 'slight'.  As to whether it's controversial... I never said it was controversial.  It's interesting to me how anxious people get when I suggest the game has pay-to-win features.  If paying gave a player NO measurable benefit... they wouldn't pay!  Kinda obvious to me...

 

​One or Two percent in total WR, not just during the grind.  Again it depends on how you play.  Using boosters in combination with 2x-5x can drastically reduce the number of battles needed for a grind, but it does come at the cost of time. I feel your pain since I never convert XP, and I have only golded a handful of crews, but even there, FTP can work if you are patient.  Gold is available in chests and contests, and when combined with periodic crew discounts, you should be able to get 100% on at least tier 9 and 10 tanks.

 

I am not a FTP, but I do spend sparingly.  I used to pay for occasional premium time, ​and I will continue to spend on the occasional interesting premium tank.  I have dropped about $150 total over the last 2 years (was FTP for almost a year). 

 

Also, WG should get some credit for basically eliminating the need for premium time.  The general availability of premium tanks in crates, and the use of premium boosters have made credits a non-issue.  This was a real problem for FTP players at high tiers in the past. 


 

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BobboEvans #23 Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:46 PM

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View PostWombeer, on 02 October 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

 

I feel you OP, I really do. This game can potentially be extremely expensive. At some point, you will need to pay if you want to truly enjoy this game, especially at the higher levels. The thing is, you can't expect to play for years for free. What other game do you play where you don't pay the developers and server admins for their time? It's ridiculous-- people expect something for nothing. The question is, how much do you have to pay? What is a fair rate? I've probably dropped about $300 in 1.5 years on this game, and it's the only videogame I play consistently at this point. I made the decision to drop some cash on premium tanks, premium time, and free experience because I work 50 hours a week and don't have the time to grind for many of the things that the younger players do have time for. To each their own.

 

Have there been times where I've lost because I didn't spend more money or won because I dropped some coin? Absolutely. But, for comparison:

 

I recently finished up my grind for the 100% crew mastery on the Type 61. I dropped free experience on the gun and turret, ground out the engine and suspension the old-fashioned way along with the crew exp from 75%. Here are my numbers:

 

85 Games

62.35% winrate

1860 average damage

 

You have to be honest about what you can expect from your own performance relative to what the game allows you to bring in with money. I'm a 59% player and this tank is quite good to allow me to achieve the numbers I have so far during the stock grind. Having that 105mm from the start was HUGE, I can tell you that. BUT, it is difficult to account for what would have happened, could have happened, should have happened. I just finished the IS3 grind with an atrocious ~51/52% winrate, but am close to finishing the SU101 at a 60%. How is that possible? When you have a small sample size, like a few hundred games, and you aren't looking at other factors that can affect your performance, you get weird numbers like this (I think it may be due to me taking the SU101 out more during weekeday afternoons for the x2 daily and grinding the IS3 during weekends when the teams are worse, but I can't say for sure). 

 

I agree that WG deserves to be compensated.  I have invested in this game at various times and that investment was never regretted because I enjoy the game!

 

Imagine what your stats in the Type 61 could have been if you just payed to completely upgrade the tank... 67% and 2300 avg damage?  Maybe... maybe not.  I feel confident they would have been better!


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Wombeer #24 Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:48 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 02 October 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

I'm going to ask you a question.  Answer it honestly... Do you pay to upgrade your tanks?

 

Lets take your comments one by one.  Tier 10?  Actually, my best ever age XP is the M46 with would reduce the number of games for the free XP to 4000 and 9 days straight of play.  Now... You are correct.  I could use the x2's to my advantage.  Realistically, that might reduce the games but it would GREATLY increase the time.  Sure... You can do your garage, but I don't have a huge garage (remember... I'm a free-ish player).  So, I will concede that it will help, but it won't come close to making it a viable way to grind a tank.

 

what you see is someone whi grinds too quickly?  I'm 500 games into the Type 61 and still have a way to go before I get to the STB.  How is that 'quick'!?????  Your x2 comment is indeed true.  Remember, those who play free don't have big garages so we don't have many x2's.  You're proposing to reduce the number of games but GREATLY increase the amount of time.  I'd like to grind through a few more lines before I die of old age.  Remember, this is just to grind ONE tier 9 tank.

 

Exactly how much patience do you gave?  You must not care about spare parts changes because they shouldn't be an issue for someone with your patience.

 

Just something to keep in mind: even if you don't have a lot of money, you could go mow two of your neighbors' lawns (obviously just an example, not trying to make assumptions) and make $20-- spend that to convert ~150,000K free experience. OR go the painful route and spend 10 days or however much it was of your life earning the same amount. Your choice. That's ultimately what made me decide to spend a bit of cash; grinding experience would be the equivalent of third world wages per hour (albeit much more fun that doing "work", but you see what I mean). 

 



Wombeer #25 Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:55 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 02 October 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

I agree that WG deserves to be compensated.  I have invested in this game at various times and that investment was never regretted because I enjoy the game!

 

Imagine what your stats in the Type 61 could have been if you just payed to completely upgrade the tank... 67% and 2300 avg damage?  Maybe... maybe not.  I feel confident they would have been better!

 

Potentially, but I think the gun upgrade for tier 9 medium tanks is disproportionately important-- Cent 7/1, M46, Leo PTA, E50, T54, Type 61, T54E1, all desperately need their upgraded 100mm or 105mm. By free xping that right at the start for the Type, I effectively am seeing the max potential I would have seen anyway, had I paid to bypass everything from the start. If I had been smart, I would have used some of the free gold I got in crates to get the crew to 100% instead of buying fugly camo for fun :D Now that might have added a bit to my winrate, but I dunno.

 

I will give you this, your sample size of almost 300 games is fairly comepelling. It would be really interesting to have a large number of players at different winrate levels (40%-unicum) see how avoiding stock tanks affects their performance ina  controlled way.

 

 



cheasesteak #26 Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:59 PM

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View PostWombeer, on 02 October 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

 

Just something to keep in mind: even if you don't have a lot of money, you could go mow two of your neighbors' lawns (obviously just an example, not trying to make assumptions) and make $20-- spend that to convert ~150,000K free experience.

 

It isn't so much the money itself - more like the wife's "you spent how much on a phone game?"  I grind for marital harmony.  The payoff is much better than an increase in WR. 


 

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Wombeer #27 Posted 02 October 2017 - 03:07 PM

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View Postcheasesteak, on 02 October 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

It isn't so much the money itself - more like the wife's "you spent how much on a phone game?"  I grind for marital harmony.  The payoff is much better than an increase in WR. 

 

Shhh that's why you have to have a secret paypal account on the side or something :hiding:

BobboEvans #28 Posted 02 October 2017 - 03:07 PM

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View PostWombeer, on 02 October 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

 

Just something to keep in mind: even if you don't have a lot of money, you could go mow two of your neighbors' lawns (obviously just an example, not trying to make assumptions) and make $20-- spend that to convert ~150,000K free experience. OR go the painful route and spend 10 days or however much it was of your life earning the same amount. Your choice. That's ultimately what made me decide to spend a bit of cash; grinding experience would be the equivalent of third world wages per hour (albeit much more fun that doing "work", but you see what I mean). 

 

I am absolutely not complaining about the state of the game or the pay-to-win features it contains!  I'm simply highlighting their existence with facts for the naysayers.  If I thought it was game killing or game ruining, I would quit.  I have enough money that I COULD invest a lot more than I have... I just choose to invest my money in the things that are truly important.  WG has a fantastic game, here.  I encourage people who enjoy it... to support it as they can (within their means and priorities).


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dindincf #29 Posted 02 October 2017 - 05:01 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 01 October 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

I'm going to ask you a question.  Answer it honestly... Do you pay to upgrade your tanks?

 

Lets take your comments one by one.  Tier 10?  Actually, my best ever age XP is the M46 with would reduce the number of games for the free XP to 4000 and 9 days straight of play.  Now... You are correct.  I could use the x2's to my advantage.  Realistically, that might reduce the games but it would GREATLY increase the time.  Sure... You can do your garage, but I don't have a huge garage (remember... I'm a free-ish player).  So, I will concede that it will help, but it won't come close to making it a viable way to grind a tank.

 

what you see is someone whi grinds too quickly?  I'm 500 games into the Type 61 and still have a way to go before I get to the STB.  How is that 'quick'!?????  Your x2 comment is indeed true.  Remember, those who play free don't have big garages so we don't have many x2's.  You're proposing to reduce the number of games but GREATLY increase the amount of time.  I'd like to grind through a few more lines before I die of old age.  Remember, this is just to grind ONE tier 9 tank.

 

Exactly how much patience do you gave?  You must not care about spare parts changes because they shouldn't be an issue for someone with your patience.

 

Do you pay to upgrade your tanks?

If we are only considering tiers 9 and 10, I have and I haven't.  For the majority of my 9s and 10s I will gold the crew and get the top gun using a mixture of accumulated free xp and purchased free xp.  I have played several without spending money (maybe some premium time at some point through the grind, I didn't keep track).     

 

With a wife, 2 kids under three years old, two hours commuting per day, full time job, I used to enjoy spending money on this game.  Being able to progress at a reasonable rate was something I would happily pay for.   

 

I have only been managing 150-200 games per month lately so I have not been spending money on premium time since May I think.  Credits are a lot easier to come by so it isn't necessary.  I do understand your frustration, the type 61 cannot be a fun tank to play stock.  Your armor is your mobility so in that tank having more than the low DPM gun is surely important.

 

What you see is someone who grinds too quickly?

Your calculations do not include free premium time, free boosters, and x2s.  I currently am playing the Tiger 2 and Cent1 with no money spent on either (I know tier 8).  Using free premium time, free boosters, and x2s it was not too difficult to max them out.  I was patient and I did have other tanks to play.  Pay to play now.  

 

You must not care about spare parts changes because they shouldn't be an issue for someone with your patience.

I have nearly 600k spare parts right now.  Spare parts and timers are annoying but it really isn't a huge deal for me since I cleared out my garage after 3.Hate.

 

Conclusion:  I'm not saying it is easy to play for free and progress without being at a disadvantage.  If you use free boosters and prem time correctly it isn't that bad from a game count point of view.  Time is the issue and we can agree on that.

 

 

 


Edited by dindincf, 02 October 2017 - 05:44 PM.

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minitel_NA #30 Posted 02 October 2017 - 06:18 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 02 October 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Let's be honest.  If I was driving the stock Type 61 and consistently winning, it wouldn't be painful or frustrating at all.  It's the winning that removes the pain and frustration.  That's what people pay for (mostly).  It's also the other stats, sure, but mostly the winning is what your brain wants.  Yes... we're saying the same thing. 

 

I was. I was winning 67% and it was totally undeserved. I wasn’t doing anything, I was too slow to see enemy, and my gun couldn’t scratch any tier10. Don’t talk about flanking, I was either too slow, either dead in seconds facing tier10 OP mediums.

 

After i got the big gun bizarrely I started losing 15 battles for a win and I think my stats are not straightened a bit.

so I lose more, but I’m making damage in game, which is what I’m supposed to.

 

see ? I could play candy crush but I don’t like winning doing nothing. I would rather have a big fight.


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dindincf #31 Posted 02 October 2017 - 06:36 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 02 October 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Imagine what your stats in the Type 61 could have been if you just payed to completely upgrade the tank... 67% and 2300 avg damage?  Maybe... maybe not.  I feel confident they would have been better!

Have you tried your hand at PC?  It can take well over 100 games to get your crew from 75% - 100% and then to grind the crew skill that allows you to know when you are spotted (sixth sense).  Everything is more expensive also and advantages gained in Blitz are nothing compared to the PC version.  Crew training on PC is insanely important and time consuming.


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___ez_e___ #32 Posted 02 October 2017 - 11:13 PM

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I think one area that gets missed in the F2P vs P2P is that the player progression and experience is vastly different.  

 

For example, I only have 3 tier X tanks because of several factors:

 

It’s hard to make that investment in a tank when you don’t know when it will be nerfed.     It’s a significantly larger investigation then a P2P, because the grind takes more time without any premiums added.  

 

You don’t use tier X for credit grinding, therefore exposure is limited due to cost of operations.    Basically, there is a dis-incentive to play tier X on a free account compared to a premium account.  

 

Credits are are such an issue on free accounts that you do have to play your reliable credit earners a lot.  

 

Free players are just not afforded the luxuries of a premium account and that makes every purchase decision that much more critical.  

 

When I get the free premium time is when I really earn credits upwards of $1 million per day.   Otherwise it’s always a struggle and constant resource management.   

 

On a final note, I believe I would be more advanced player  in tier X with a premium account.  With a premium account I could afford to purchase more tier X tanks and play a majority of my battles only in top tiers.    I can back my claim by saying most of my tanks were below 50 wr and I’ve rehabbed my tanks (my tanks used to be mostly orange with a little green if you know what I mean).   I just don’t get the exposure I want compared to other tiers due to the cost factor.    

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by ___ez_e___, 02 October 2017 - 11:27 PM.


BobboEvans #33 Posted 03 October 2017 - 01:56 PM

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View Post___ez_e___, on 02 October 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

I think one area that gets missed in the F2P vs P2P is that the player progression and experience is vastly different.  

 

For example, I only have 3 tier X tanks because of several factors:

 

It’s hard to make that investment in a tank when you don’t know when it will be nerfed.     It’s a significantly larger investigation then a P2P, because the grind takes more time without any premiums added.  

 

You don’t use tier X for credit grinding, therefore exposure is limited due to cost of operations.    Basically, there is a dis-incentive to play tier X on a free account compared to a premium account.  

 

Credits are are such an issue on free accounts that you do have to play your reliable credit earners a lot.  

 

Free players are just not afforded the luxuries of a premium account and that makes every purchase decision that much more critical.  

 

When I get the free premium time is when I really earn credits upwards of $1 million per day.   Otherwise it’s always a struggle and constant resource management.   

 

On a final note, I believe I would be more advanced player  in tier X with a premium account.  With a premium account I could afford to purchase more tier X tanks and play a majority of my battles only in top tiers.    I can back my claim by saying most of my tanks were below 50 wr and I’ve rehabbed my tanks (my tanks used to be mostly orange with a little green if you know what I mean).   I just don’t get the exposure I want compared to other tiers due to the cost factor.    

 

 

 

 

 

Blitz is 100% free to play.  I can say that because I mostly play for free and have never found it to be crippling.  My thread is simple to highlight the pay-to-win features and advantages.  I'm almost done with the Type grind and will publish the final results so that folks can see the ACTUAL pay-to-win advantages.


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BobboEvans #34 Posted 03 October 2017 - 07:01 PM

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The final numbers are in as I've just researched the STB!  Here's the final impact of 'pay-to-win'.

Total games:  616
Final Win Rate:  53.08
Final Avg Damage:  1612

Here's my stats from the time upgraded to the end:
Total games:  319
Win Rate Upgraded:  55.17%
Avg Damage Upgraded:  1869 per game.

So... the end impact is 2.09% on my win rate and 257 on my avg damage stats by going the 'free' route.  If I payed the ~$23, I would have bought 13 wins and 158,291 damage over my first 297 games.

I'll append the OP.

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dindincf #35 Posted 03 October 2017 - 07:39 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 03 October 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

The final numbers are in as I've just researched the STB! Here's the final impact of 'pay-to-win'.

Total games: 616
Final Win Rate: 53.08
Final Avg Damage: 1612

Here's my stats from the time upgraded to the end:
Total games: 319
Win Rate Upgraded: 55.17%
Avg Damage Upgraded: 1869 per game.

So... the end impact is 2.09% on my win rate and 257 on my avg damage stats by going the 'free' route. If I payed the ~$23, I would have bought 13 wins and 158,291 damage over my first 297 games.

I'll append the OP.

Did you use any free boosters or certs?


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BobboEvans #36 Posted 03 October 2017 - 08:43 PM

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View Postdindincf, on 03 October 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

Did you use any free boosters or certs?

Sort of.  I used boosters when I remembered.  Which happened early on... when I ONLY played when I had an x2 or more... no certs (assume you mean premium time).

 

Maybe I should have just done rating battles!???


Edited by BobboEvans, 03 October 2017 - 08:43 PM.

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cheasesteak #37 Posted 03 October 2017 - 08:50 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 03 October 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Maybe I should have just done rating battles!???

 

Wait times are horrible.  Not worth it just to save a bit on stats.  I know, I tried for about a dozen battles on my T30 and 7/1 grinds. 


 

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Wombeer #38 Posted 03 October 2017 - 11:00 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 03 October 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

The final numbers are in as I've just researched the STB! Here's the final impact of 'pay-to-win'.

Total games: 616
Final Win Rate: 53.08
Final Avg Damage: 1612

Here's my stats from the time upgraded to the end:
Total games: 319
Win Rate Upgraded: 55.17%
Avg Damage Upgraded: 1869 per game.

So... the end impact is 2.09% on my win rate and 257 on my avg damage stats by going the 'free' route. If I payed the ~$23, I would have bought 13 wins and 158,291 damage over my first 297 games.

I'll append the OP.

 

Congrats! :medal: it looks worth the grind

mustaceolet #39 Posted 04 October 2017 - 04:41 AM

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There is one other wrench i would like to throw into the mix. How many battles did you run before you acutally learned the tanks characteristic? Is it a hill fighter? Shoot and scoot? Whats the gun depression/elevation? What tanks can i out dmp? All things that a driver needs to learn on a new tank. Could this play in any part the win/loss at the start? I niether agree or disagree with your claims. Im just simply asking the question!

Spekulatius #40 Posted 05 October 2017 - 11:23 PM

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View Postcheasesteak, on 02 October 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Paying to bypass stock crew and tank grinds brings a slightly increased WR.  How much depends on how you grind.  It won't make a bad player good, but might be worth a percent or two on WR. 

 

I don't see this as terribly controversial.  WG needs to make money some how. 

i think the difference  in WR for is probably more than 2% and less than 5% for stock grinders vs free  XP’er. I estimate that from my 25k games, at least about 10-12k games were spent driving tanks with various levels of incompleteness (crew, modules etc) and generaly the hit in WR between a fully upgraded and a stockishnet tank is ~10% or thereabouts. Cheap as I am, for me that is an acceptable price to pay, for others that find their stats to be really important, it certainly isn’t. Having recognized about 2 years ago, that I am a mediocre player anyways has taken a lot of pressure from looking too much at stats. Each it’s own.

 


Edited by Spekulatius, 05 October 2017 - 11:24 PM.

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