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Type 61: A Case Study

Pay-to-Win

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minitel_NA #41 Posted 05 October 2017 - 11:46 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 03 October 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

The final numbers are in as I've just researched the STB! Here's the final impact of 'pay-to-win'.

Total games: 616
Final Win Rate: 53.08
Final Avg Damage: 1612

Here's my stats from the time upgraded to the end:
Total games: 319
Win Rate Upgraded: 55.17%
Avg Damage Upgraded: 1869 per game.

So... the end impact is 2.09% on my win rate and 257 on my avg damage stats by going the 'free' route. If I payed the ~$23, I would have bought 13 wins and 158,291 damage over my first 297 games.

I'll append the OP.

It’s nice research.

 

I think these numbers shrink for noobs, when you can only land 2 shots per game paying would make probably zero difference.

on the opposite it’s logical to think that for superunicums with a competitive mind if they were to grind solo from the bare stock tank, it would hurt tremendously. 

You can pay, or you can use a safe platoon, boosters, free xp, and other artifacts to help. I know some very good players don’t pay much. 

So im wondering what these numbers would be for a superuni.

 

Overall I still think it’s pay for stats. Individual games with similar tanks, paying doesn’t give you an advantage

 

 

.... except some stuff.

  • the old prammo was a bit pay to win,
  • the abundance of camo, provisions, consumables, each of them adds slightly towards pay to win. It’s the same as prammo, you can get them for credits but if you use a lot of them and your results are below very good then you will need real cash to sustain your carrer progression and next tank purchase. You can’t grind money and spend liberally on everything without falling broke, especially at higher tiers, especially without a premium account.

 

  • the new booster about faster consumable reload is really pay to win. Especially it doesn’t come in a crate. I don’t think it was good to create that. On tanks with the equivalent 9slot is unlocked, my brains can never get used to how soon the adrenaline is available again. Adding the boosters on top, I’m sure you get on adrenaline half of your shots if not more often. That’s sad to see.

 


Edited by minitel_NA, 05 October 2017 - 11:47 PM.

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BobboEvans #42 Posted 06 October 2017 - 03:07 PM

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View Postmustaceolet, on 04 October 2017 - 04:41 AM, said:

There is one other wrench i would like to throw into the mix. How many battles did you run before you acutally learned the tanks characteristic? Is it a hill fighter? Shoot and scoot? Whats the gun depression/elevation? What tanks can i out dmp? All things that a driver needs to learn on a new tank. Could this play in any part the win/loss at the start? I niether agree or disagree with your claims. Im just simply asking the question!

I have 37k games and I've played enough meds that I understand how to use the tool after a couple games.  While there's always some learning, it's more about the rhythm of the tank (muscle memory on reloads, control, which shots to take/not take) but that's in the noise.  It took 297 games to get it upgraded.  Even if 'learning' the nuances of the tank took 20 games, it's in the noise.  

 

View PostSpekulatius, on 05 October 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

i think the difference  in WR for is probably more than 2% and less than 5% for stock grinders vs free  XP’er. I estimate that from my 25k games, at least about 10-12k games were spent driving tanks with various levels of incompleteness (crew, modules etc) and generaly the hit in WR between a fully upgraded and a stockishnet tank is ~10% or thereabouts. Cheap as I am, for me that is an acceptable price to pay, for others that find their stats to be really important, it certainly isn’t. Having recognized about 2 years ago, that I am a mediocre player anyways has taken a lot of pressure from looking too much at stats. Each it’s own.

 

Well, almost every tank I drive has some level of incompleteness because I don't run provisions (run food rations only between 75% and 95% crew) or equipment (only on tier 10 and credit premium tanks).  So I can't comment on the impact of running those things in this thread.  The pre-upgrade to full upgrade delta in the Type was 4-5% for me and only impacted my overall by 2% because of the 319 games played fully upgradeD vs 297 not upgraded.

 

 


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BobboEvans #43 Posted 06 October 2017 - 03:15 PM

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View Postminitel_NA, on 05 October 2017 - 11:46 PM, said:

It’s nice research.

 

I think these numbers shrink for noobs, when you can only land 2 shots per game paying would make probably zero difference.

on the opposite it’s logical to think that for superunicums with a competitive mind if they were to grind solo from the bare stock tank, it would hurt tremendously. 

You can pay, or you can use a safe platoon, boosters, free xp, and other artifacts to help. I know some very good players don’t pay much. 

So im wondering what these numbers would be for a superuni.

 

Overall I still think it’s pay for stats. Individual games with similar tanks, paying doesn’t give you an advantage

 

 

.... except some stuff.

  • the old prammo was a bit pay to win,
  • the abundance of camo, provisions, consumables, each of them adds slightly towards pay to win. It’s the same as prammo, you can get them for credits but if you use a lot of them and your results are below very good then you will need real cash to sustain your carrer progression and next tank purchase. You can’t grind money and spend liberally on everything without falling broke, especially at higher tiers, especially without a premium account.

 

  • the new booster about faster consumable reload is really pay to win. Especially it doesn’t come in a crate. I don’t think it was good to create that. On tanks with the equivalent 9slot is unlocked, my brains can never get used to how soon the adrenaline is available again. Adding the boosters on top, I’m sure you get on adrenaline half of your shots if not more often. That’s sad to see.

 

Clearly, there are extremes on both sides (super unis and super noobs) where the impacts will be subtle because of the skills are a bigger impact on outcome than the tank.  I think for a large portion of the playerbase, there are real and measurable differences.  Now, play a few thousand games grinding credits in your fully upgraded tank and the impact gets muted.  To me, stats are wins and wins are stats.  


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___ez_e___ #44 Posted 06 October 2017 - 03:17 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 03 October 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

Blitz is 100% free to play.  I can say that because I mostly play for free and have never found it to be crippling.  My thread is simple to highlight the pay-to-win features and advantages.  I'm almost done with the Type grind and will publish the final results so that folks can see the ACTUAL pay-to-win advantages.

 

Even if you only played 1 of 7 days with a premium account, that is not even close to playing for free.   (Obviously excluding the free premium we all get. )

 

I can make more money in one day on a premium account without even trying to credit grind, then I can make playing for for a week.  

 

I probably make 3-5 times as much in one day of premium account then I do in a week of free to play  account. 

 

So so even if you play a little on premium account, it makes a huge difference.  

 

Also so it’s only crippling once you get to top tiers.  

 

Tier 8 and lower is no issue.  


Edited by ___ez_e___, 06 October 2017 - 06:51 PM.


NaDa_22 #45 Posted 06 October 2017 - 04:11 PM

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Are pay-to-win and pay-to-progress-faster mutually exclusive concept? I figured everyone understood that progressing faster would equate to winning more games.

 

Being able to spam Full Provision load out, Premium rounds, Consumables, and Camo enhances one's performance. Not to mention, it's hard to build Crew Skills to level 6 (soon to be Level 7) if you are playing all your tanks from 75% Crew Training. 

 

Yet, I hesitate to call this game pay-to-win, because 1) there are no modules & combat enhancements that are only purchasable with Gold, and 2) skill is the most important differentiating factor among the top dogs. 

 

Nothing can stop from a F2P player from being one of the best players - especially now with the help of Crates, Missions, Events, Premium Ammunition nerf, and Touranments. Yes, it might take longer, and overall career stat may not look flashy, but that free-to-play gamer can rise to the top with skill + determination. 

 

In many ways, I think this game is similar to playing Golf. Even if I buy the most expensive gold clubs + balls, I cannot beat my friend who is using a cheap set, if that friend actually knows how to play. 



minitel_NA #46 Posted 06 October 2017 - 06:27 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 06 October 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Clearly, there are extremes on both sides (super unis and super noobs) where the impacts will be subtle because of the skills are a bigger impact on outcome than the tank.  I think for a large portion of the playerbase, there are real and measurable differences.  Now, play a few thousand games grinding credits in your fully upgraded tank and the impact gets muted.  To me, stats are wins and wins are stats.  

 

I think it shows and is worth much more to extremely good players. For middle player where outcomes rely a lot on circumstances the bonus is mostly a feel good or psychological effect. Finally it does nothing to help the 39%er.


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Alucard8732 #47 Posted 06 October 2017 - 06:35 PM

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View PostCK_GoldenNuggets, on 01 October 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

While your argument is pretty nice and a little amusing. As a fairly free to play player... I only purchase premium tanks since its a hobby of mine. I simply collect all the tanks in this game. I never buy premium time or convert gold to free Exp. (With this 1 time Christmas bonus exception). So my counter argument is that you may be losing that 470 damage per game if you had just "Payed - to - win" but the reality is that after everythings said and done. If you are a 51% player, and a comparing your skill to a 50% player. After a certain number of games your stats will supercede his. Its just pay 2 Advance stats for the first couple hundred games. Then everything will plateau out.

Certainly being maxed first will mean he will be doing better than you in the beginning since his tank is clearly better than yours at that point, but it doesnt make him more skilled at the game in any way. At one point or another, if you have a higher winrate your stats will pass his. The point being, the only thing Paying2Progress does is help "Stat Padders" have nice early stats so its less difficult to farm and cultivate their long term stats. If thats what you are looking for then, congrats. Its "Pay2Win" but in reality, anything you can buy in this game can be earned regularity just with more effort and time. If you dont have the time thats disappointing but its no excuse to go calling the game Pay2Win. That function simply exists so WG can make their revenue and people with literally 0 patience can get to the more "fun" tanks a lot quicker.

 

Couldn't have said it any better 



BobboEvans #48 Posted 06 October 2017 - 07:01 PM

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View PostNaDa_22, on 06 October 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

1) Are pay-to-win and pay-to-progress-faster mutually exclusive concept? I figured everyone understood that progressing faster would equate to winning more games.

 

2) Being able to spam Full Provision load out, Premium rounds, Consumables, and Camo enhances one's performance. Not to mention, it's hard to build Crew Skills to level 6 (soon to be Level 7) if you are playing all your tanks from 75% Crew Training. 

 

3). Yet, I hesitate to call this game pay-to-win, because 1) there are no modules & combat enhancements that are only purchasable with Gold, and 2) skill is the most important differentiating factor among the top dogs. 

 

Nothing can stop from a F2P player from being one of the best players - especially now with the help of Crates, Missions, Events, Premium Ammunition nerf, and Touranments. Yes, it might take longer, and overall career stat may not look flashy, but that free-to-play gamer can rise to the top with skill + determination. 

 

In many ways, I think this game is similar to playing Golf. Even if I buy the most expensive gold clubs + balls, I cannot beat my friend who is using a cheap set, if that friend actually knows how to play. 

1) I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  I think they're both pay to advance faster and pay to win. Their are folks that lambast me for my pay-to-win view though.

 

2) I agree.  All those things push up your odds of winning.  WG has implemented crates and spare parts that make credit earning a little easier to fit into normal play but credits are still difficult if you run a full load out at high tiers.  This adds to the pay-to-win aspect but I don't think this is a huge benefit by itself.

 

3) I understand the rest of your points and fully agree.  I absolutely don't think Blitz is pay-to-get skills.   Skill conquers all and I can't 'buy my way to being a super unicum.  I can pay to get myself more wins, though.  So it would allow me to win SOME percentage of games I otherwise wouldn't be able to get over the finish line.  

 

View PostAlucard8732, on 06 October 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

 

Couldn't have said it any better 

Did you even read what I wrote or how I responded to his post? 

 


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NaDa_22 #49 Posted 06 October 2017 - 07:25 PM

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View PostBobboEvans, on 06 October 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

1) I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  I think they're both pay to advance faster and pay to win. Their are folks that lambast me for my pay-to-win view though.

 

2) I agree.  All those things push up your odds of winning.  WG has implemented crates and spare parts that make credit earning a little easier to fit into normal play but credits are still difficult if you run a full load out at high tiers.  This adds to the pay-to-win aspect but I don't think this is a huge benefit by itself.

 

3) I understand the rest of your points and fully agree.  I absolutely don't think Blitz is pay-to-get skills.   Skill conquers all and I can't 'buy my way to being a super unicum.  I can pay to get myself more wins, though.  So it would allow me to win SOME percentage of games I otherwise wouldn't be able to get over the finish line.  

 

1) I know what you are referring to. My guess is that some people are philosophically disagreeing, since as you put #3, Blitz isn't pay-to-git-gud. Others I think may just be tired of dealing with the constant "MM and RNG are rigged for paying customer" non-sense that comes from sub-par players and treat all P2W talks with a certain hostility.  

 

2) I think all of us ought to be grateful that Blitz has at least moved slightly away from some of its pay-to-win more features. But I agree. When I play on a different server without Premium time - I see how difficult it is not to lose credits, even at tier 9. 


Edited by NaDa_22, 06 October 2017 - 07:38 PM.






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