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WR and which team gets first kill tracking


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_Weeping_Angel_ #21 Posted 17 October 2017 - 02:40 PM

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View PostJylpah, on 16 October 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

Thanks OP! Very interesting. Could you please publish number of battles for each of those 20 tier / +/1 / Game mode brackets? 

 

​I added the games in each tier for the breakdown.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I forgot to add that in the graph.  That is the hardest part about not finishing out to 1000 games.  When I started to break down the tiers the numbers for each part gets smaller and increases the chances of variance and runs (good or bad).  I debated about not even posting them but I wanted to show all the different things I was tracking.

klievhelm #22 Posted 17 October 2017 - 04:48 PM

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A good reminder that damage per battle isn't everything. 

 

My spotting has always been subpar. Once I get to a (wholly arbitrary) 2.0 damage ratio, upping my spotting game is going to be a priority. 



SpartacusDiablo #23 Posted 19 October 2017 - 12:41 PM

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I've added this to the Matchmaking thread.  Once again, this was an awesome thread. Great job OP.

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borboleta #24 Posted 19 October 2017 - 03:37 PM

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Agreed. Really great work and observations to the OP. It confirms what I've noticed myself, that the matches are pretty much decided in the first couple of minutes. Once a team is down a tank or two, then it's pretty much already over. What I didn't realize is how decisive it is to lose the first tank. I've learned that ganging up and bringing multiple guns against an enemy tank wins matches, but I didn't realize how critical it is. I will try to change my play style as I tend to try risky moves and too often die an early death. I think I will try to play more conservatively to keep my gun in the game longer.

Lmsd123 #25 Posted 19 October 2017 - 04:00 PM

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+1

mloomis2504 #26 Posted 24 October 2017 - 11:39 PM

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This is great work Weeping Angel - I hope WG finds this thread and reads it.  Did you by any chance track AFK's in those battles as well?  It would seem to me that an AFK is equivalent to being -1 (or +1 if on red).

 

This confirms statistically for me what I've known for a while - most matches are not determined by the best player on the team, but the worst player on the team.  More specifically one or two exceptionally bad players will guarantee a loss.  When I run in to a Unicom toon - unless the situation dictates, I typically don't go head into these guys - take the easier damage / kills around them and get the 3 on 2 / 4 on 2 at the end. 

 

Clearly skill matters with good players or you wouldn't see folks in the 60% and 70% WR categories - but in my experience this is good players taking care of business when they are even or have the advantage and sometimes pulling it out when they draw the really bad players.

 

Rather than working on skill based MM tweaks - it would be great to see WG work on a forcing function through training / scripted missions that provide those players willing to learn some pretty clear instruction on the basics (the game ain't that hard) ... and prevent the turret spinners / yolo masters / drive in zoom players from participating in the higher tiers.

 

Anyway - thanks again weeping angel - fantastic work


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mpastor2000 #27 Posted 25 October 2017 - 12:10 AM

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  1. I agree sitting back and waiting is not a good tactic.  A better tactic is to push the choke points with as many guns as possible and focus fire to get that first kill.
  2. Also, vamping off a teammate is a good way to pad your damage, a poor tactic overall.  Really the best way to do well is to do your best to keep your teammates alive.  Even a newb occasionally fires his gun and occasionally scores a hit.  Even if that means taking damage yourself to save another.
  3. Your conclusion on one tank running off is not logical though. And I don't think true.  Sure, new players should all stick together (people with WR's lower than 60 imo).   Also hvys should move with the team and not push separately.  But, if a good player in a light or medium pushes a flank and meets resistance then a couple things can happen,

a) If he meets one enemy, odds are he wins, and continues to flank helping team.

b) He meets no enemy and pushes on to quickly flank vastly helping his team.

C) If he meets multiple enemies, then odds are he will lose, but he can help the team by keeping two or more tanks busy.  The main body now has less enemy to fight.  Essentially he has handed the main body a free "One or more kill" situation in their local fight.   The key here is that the main body must push their engagement against the smaller force they face.  Odds are they defeat the smaller force, then can turn and deal with another smaller force that flanked and killed their flanker.  Overall, if played properly the main body should win both engagements more often than not.  This flanking alone is something I specialize at.

 

 

Overall, we need a paradigm shift in this community away from thinking protecting your tank and amassing damage is the best tactic, and toward a more aggressive move the most guns to contact first approach.       


Edited by mpastor2000, 25 October 2017 - 12:11 AM.


_Duncan_Idaho_ #28 Posted 07 November 2017 - 06:40 PM

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View Post_Weeping_Angel_, on 16 October 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Mission :  Track which team gets the first kill and how does that correlate to my WR.  I played all games solo with no rated games.  This would remove interference by platoon mate or battles that a normal player could not have based on their rating.  I tracked regular and supremacy games separately.

 

Thanks for this informative effort. I propose for the next collection of data, someone track games on whether or not the team splits. . . . but with that effort, I think it would also have to be map specific. IE if you are on copperfield, you must split, but on himmelsdorf you could be advantaged or disadvantaged by splitting.

 

Also, another interesting data point to collect would be WR based on whether or not a player makes a call at the start of the game and whether or not the team follows that call. (and also whether or not that call is opposed to the typical map meta and whether or not MM justified that call).


 

 


_Weeping_Angel_ #29 Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:03 PM

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View Post_Duncan_Idaho_, on 07 November 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

 

Thanks for this informative effort. I propose for the next collection of data, someone track games on whether or not the team splits. . . . but with that effort, I think it would also have to be map specific. IE if you are on copperfield, you must split, but on himmelsdorf you could be advantaged or disadvantaged by splitting.

 

Also, another interesting data point to collect would be WR based on whether or not a player makes a call at the start of the game and whether or not the team follows that call. (and also whether or not that call is opposed to the typical map meta and whether or not MM justified that call).

 

​I really like your ideas and are interesting but here is where I have a problem.

 

1. The amount of data needed to be collected would be hard to manage and the number of game needed would be staggering.  I would have to track for 2k games or more to get enough games from each map to make it worth while. Then from each map you should split between the two starting points because on some maps that makes all the difference in the world.

 

2. Is there really a solid consensus on each map on what is the proper thing to do is it more based on team make up?

 

I just think there are just too many variables to collect data that I could use.  I am not digging deep into what I collect.  I has been a very long time since I took a stats class.

 

View Postmloomis2504, on 24 October 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

This is great work Weeping Angel - I hope WG finds this thread and reads it.  Did you by any chance track AFK's in those battles as well?  It would seem to me that an AFK is equivalent to being -1 (or +1 if on red).

 

This was my other idea for tracking and may do that next.  I would track how many zero damage tanks each side gets and win or loses.  It is really hard to tell if someone is AFK for the whole game, part of the game, or just a really bad game - they can all do zero damage.  I think the zero damage is what most tankers see in the results and just assume they were afk. I would be curious on this if a certain map is more friendly to these tanks.  Some tanks you can get to the spawns quickly so if someone is late getting in they are probably dead already and some maps it takes forever to get to the other spawn to find them at the end.



Gavidoc01 #30 Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:42 PM

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View Post_Weeping_Angel_, on 07 November 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

2. Is there really a solid consensus on each map on what is the proper thing to do is it more based on team make up?

On some yes. Mines is an example. From my experience, going towards CAP on mines is a certain loss every time. If everyone goes that way you've essentially boxed yourself into a firing lane with no room to move. The disparity is too great vs. the hill and lighthouse side. All other maps IMO it really depends on the teams and even then moving in a wall is more productive than splitting. 

 

There have been more than a few times where we pushed the hills by cap on copperfield as a mass and overwhelmed the red forces going that way. Nothing like surprising the lone heavies with a concentrated move by the entire team to take their armor and guns out. 


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Fu_Manchu_ #31 Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:12 PM

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View Postmpastor2000, on 24 October 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

  1. I agree sitting back and waiting is not a good tactic.  A better tactic is to push the choke points with as many guns as possible and focus fire to get that first kill.
  2. Also, vamping off a teammate is a good way to pad your damage, a poor tactic overall.  Really the best way to do well is to do your best to keep your teammates alive.  Even a newb occasionally fires his gun and occasionally scores a hit.  Even if that means taking damage yourself to save another.
  3. Your conclusion on one tank running off is not logical though. And I don't think true.  Sure, new players should all stick together (people with WR's lower than 60 imo).   Also hvys should move with the team and not push separately.  But, if a good player in a light or medium pushes a flank and meets resistance then a couple things can happen,

a) If he meets one enemy, odds are he wins, and continues to flank helping team.

b) He meets no enemy and pushes on to quickly flank vastly helping his team.

C) If he meets multiple enemies, then odds are he will lose, but he can help the team by keeping two or more tanks busy.  The main body now has less enemy to fight.  Essentially he has handed the main body a free "One or more kill" situation in their local fight.   The key here is that the main body must push their engagement against the smaller force they face.  Odds are they defeat the smaller force, then can turn and deal with another smaller force that flanked and killed their flanker.  Overall, if played properly the main body should win both engagements more often than not.  This flanking alone is something I specialize at.

 

 

Overall, we need a paradigm shift in this community away from thinking protecting your tank and amassing damage is the best tactic, and toward a more aggressive move the most guns to contact first approach.       

 

The problem is if the yoloer runs into the entire red team and gets vaporized instantly. Now its 7v6. The only advantage gained from that is that the rest of your team at least knows where the enemy is.

AKA HanYolo_.


_Cletus #32 Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:33 PM

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Wow, I'm always blown away when someone provides the blitz community with data like this, it seems like a lot of work compiling and processing the info and I certainly appreciate it!  You get a medal!  :medal:

 

It's very interesting data.  It squares well with a point that Dark Magic Girl made on a post a few weeks ago.  She said it was important for her to get the first shot on the first spot, and that's kind of resonated with me ever since.  When I first read it I thought "but pushing up to get that shot will result in lots of yolo deaths" but since I've started doing it it's definitely made a difference in my game.


 

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mpastor2000 #33 Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:37 PM

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View PostFu_Manchu_, on 07 November 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

 

The problem is if the yoloer runs into the entire red team and gets vaporized instantly. Now its 7v6. The only advantage gained from that is that the rest of your team at least knows where the enemy is.

 

I am talking only a good player flanking and not a hvy.  The odds that the whole enemy team will face him are less than 50%.  This means most of the time he helps his team win more often.  A good play can often abort the flank move if he sees the whole enemy team coming.  I dont think you need to do any studies.  It should be obvious to anyone that getting more guns on fastest and killing first will lead to more wins.  

Fu_Manchu_ #34 Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:04 PM

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View Postmpastor2000, on 07 November 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

I am talking only a good player flanking and not a hvy.  The odds that the whole enemy team will face him are less than 50%.  This means most of the time he helps his team win more often.  A good play can often abort the flank move if he sees the whole enemy team coming.  I dont think you need to do any studies.  It should be obvious to anyone that getting more guns on fastest and killing first will lead to more wins.  

 

I don't disagree with any of that. I've only played up to tier V so far and almost everyone I've seen go yolo, while the other 6 go the other way, ends up dead.

AKA HanYolo_.


_Weeping_Angel_ #35 Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:53 PM

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View Postmpastor2000, on 07 November 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

 

I am talking only a good player flanking and not a hvy.  The odds that the whole enemy team will face him are less than 50%.  This means most of the time he helps his team win more often.  A good play can often abort the flank move if he sees the whole enemy team coming.  I dont think you need to do any studies.  It should be obvious to anyone that getting more guns on fastest and killing first will lead to more wins.  

 

​This is a very small group of people then that will only influence a small amount of games.  I consider myself a good player and I would never intentionally yolo on a hard/long flank unless the MM had just the right make up.  Even then with all the metas not being as solid and predictable as they once were this is a risky move.

Edited by _Weeping_Angel_, 07 November 2017 - 10:55 PM.


LtRaseiniai #36 Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:10 PM

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View Postmpastor2000, on 07 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

 

I am talking only a good player flanking and not a hvy.  The odds that the whole enemy team will face him are less than 50%.  This means most of the time he helps his team win more often.  A good play can often abort the flank move if he sees the whole enemy team coming.  I dont think you need to do any studies.  It should be obvious to anyone that getting more guns on fastest and killing first will lead to more wins.  

 

This is one of the things that really gets me upset during a game.  If I go off on a flank by myself, and I'm able to hold of two or three reds for an extended period of time.  I want my team to see that they have a numeric advantage on their side of the map, and make a big push to take advantage of it.

 



LtRaseiniai #37 Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:12 PM

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View Post_Weeping_Angel_, on 07 November 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

 

​This is a very small group of people then that will only influence a small amount of games.  I consider myself a good player and I would never intentionally yolo on a hard/long flank unless the MM had just the right make up.  Even then with all the metas not being as solid and predictable as they once were this is a risky move.

 

This is what is really wrong with the meta of stay together that so many people think is the only way to play.

I never "stay together".

I always try to get out on a flank, and every team should have one or two tanks trying to make flanking moves.

If you can play ... it's not a yolo ....it's called a flank and it's hugely effective way to win.



_Weeping_Angel_ #38 Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:41 PM

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View Postobi__wan__shinobi, on 07 November 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

 

This is what is really wrong with the meta of stay together that so many people think is the only way to play.

I never "stay together".

I always try to get out on a flank, and every team should have one or two tanks trying to make flanking moves.

If you can play ... it's not a yolo ....it's called a flank and it's hugely effective way to win.

 

Sorry but to me an isolated tanks is a dead tank. Solo is hard for even good players. Two tanks are probably 4x more likely to be a successful flank than one.  This ia asooo situational. There are time i will break from a pack to achieve a flanking position or lots times i will side skirt the main scrum to create cross fire angles but intentionally running by myself across the map not too often. 


Edited by _Weeping_Angel_, 07 November 2017 - 11:50 PM.


mpastor2000 #39 Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:50 PM

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View Post_Weeping_Angel_, on 07 November 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

 

​This is a very small group of people then that will only influence a small amount of games.  I consider myself a good player and I would never intentionally yolo on a hard/long flank unless the MM had just the right make up.  Even then with all the metas not being as solid and predictable as they once were this is a risky move.

 

I do this all the time.  I think its a key move to carry a lot of teams to victory.  It is not a move for poor players or for hvys.  It's probably the single greatest way to make a big difference for your team.  However, if like was mentioned above, your team is cowering on the other side, or not paying attention, then they can lose the huge advantage you give them.  BTW, why do you say this only influences a small amount of games.  It's my experience that it influences greatly a large amount of games and only back fires occasionally.

 

It's not as risky as you think.  

 

 


Edited by mpastor2000, 07 November 2017 - 11:56 PM.


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View Postmpastor2000, on 07 November 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

 

I do this all the time.  I think its a key move to carry a lot of teams to victory.  It is not a move for poor players or for hvys.  It's probably the single greatest way to make a big difference for your team.  However, if like was mentioned above, your team is cowering on the other side, or not paying attention, then they can lose the huge advantage you give them.  BTW, why do you say this only influences a small amount of games.  It's my experience that it influences greatly a large amount of games and only back fires occasionally.

 

It's not as risky as you think.  

 

 

 

Great in low tiers - not to practical in higher tiers

 

And face it -- a good player can dominate most tier 6 and under games


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