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Meat_Locker #1281 Posted 07 June 2020 - 01:16 PM

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We don't know it to be true that anything about this game is truly random. We have no access to the formulae nor algorithms employed. Nothing of this matter is communicated in an open and falsifiable manner. Thus, there is nothing but assurances, guesses and assertions by which to assuage or annoy oneself. Guesses and assertions made by anyone posting on the forum are as valid as the actual proof they provide and nobody is forthcoming with anything beyond anecdotes.

 

This begs the question of one of the problems with having non-employees moderate any outward-facing communications platform on behalf of a 3rd party venture. They can hardly be either impartial or fully informed in a manner that is authoritative and trustworthy. What they would have access to would be proprietary and under NDA. Thus, it wouldn't likely be given in the first place and, if there was access to hard data & algorithms, they wouldn't be at liberty to share it. There is no reason to think that WG gives MM or RNG data to all but the closest internal team on an absolutely "as needed" basis.

 

This is not to disparage the individuals that donate their time to a multi-million (or is it "billion"? I can't be bothered to look it up.) Dollar enterprise. It's just to give a clear framing to something that some may not think about and to provide context to any and all offered information and discussions on and of MM and RNG. Nothing will ever be submitted to this forum that will be authoritative and provable. 

 

I don't expect WG to ever disclose actual & verifiable information concerning the inner working of their systems and, frankly, it isn't all that interesting. However, the least surprising thing in the world would be to discover, some years from now via a disgruntled employee, that numbers were tilted in favor of persons & clans that served an ambassadorial function, role or image. The recipients of this good favor would not even know that this is happening. How would they? 

And why would a company, a company not known to be any more forthcoming than FaceBook, Google, Twitter, etc. not do everything in their right to achieve their goals? 

 

Again, in the end, I'd like to underline the fact that we'll never know anything of provable & testable substance related to MM, RNG, etc. It's a maddening conversation as there is no succor to be had. It's like endlessly playing with the sore on a bitten lip.


Edited by Meat_Locker, 07 June 2020 - 01:16 PM.


 


_Crusader6_ #1282 Posted 07 June 2020 - 01:38 PM

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Meat, good post.  
   Several of us are under NDA with WG for various things 

 No Mods to my knowledge have any knowledge of the MM algorithm.  
 

I used to log battles to the infinite degree. It was a frustrating and massively time consuming experience.  
  All it made was was flabbergasted at the ‘skill’ level of the general player. 
But after almost 10k games and almost 70k different NA players logged, I came to the conclusion that WG doesn’t even need to do anything.  I’m in the top 5% of Blitz players / and there is a massive skill difference between me and a player in the top 1%. 
  There are massive differences all through the player base. 
The best analogy I have seen is SD’s Bucket of Poo, simply because random is easier for WG and doesn’t open them up to any legal issues for players who would take issue with a non random MM, and WG has nothing to gain   
 

Also Random is addictive, you never know who’s going to be on red or green, and given that, I’m sliding down Occam’s Razor to go with it is most likely random* (side it is computer generated it won’t be as random as it would be with a manual method - but for our purposes it is as random As it gets). 
 

Whatever WG does use, it is a trade secret, and none of us should hold our breath to expect WG to release it.  
   I suspect WG gets a kick out of these threads as I am sure it’s not nearly as black art as most think. 

Recently (which may interest those who concern themselves with wait times) - I’ve noticed if I have a long wait time in queue, I am most likely going to have packet loss, that PingPlotter shows usually to be a hub by a provider that is stuttering and dropping a lot of my packets.    My guess is that WG is trying to 1) either wait till you have a more reliable connection, or 2) drop people into battle with similar issues.   If I’m running a stable connection without any loss, I drop into battle right away.  
 

 


 

 

 

 


 

 
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shyw #1283 Posted 07 June 2020 - 01:46 PM

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To all the Veteran players that have been around for several years, do y’all remember WG having the video conference stating that MM and RNG was going to be modified to allow for better balancing?
 

After the MM and RNG modifications, majority of us realized drops in our Winrate immediately and still dropping unless you learned how to adapt.

 

How can peeps who had Winrate at 62.50 after 50k of battle drop to 60.15.....mind you having a tier 6 avg.

 

It is like we forgot how to play within a 60 day period after the implementation of this modification.

 

I wish I can get the replay of that video because I know I was not the only one who saw this WG conference



_Crusader6_ #1284 Posted 07 June 2020 - 02:13 PM

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View Postshyw, on 07 June 2020 - 08:46 AM, said:

To all the Veteran players that have been around for several years, do y’all remember WG having the video conference stating that MM and RNG was going to be modified to allow for better balancing?
 

After the MM and RNG modifications, majority of us realized drops in our Winrate immediately and still dropping unless you learned how to adapt.

 

How can peeps who had Winrate at 62.50 after 50k of battle drop to 60.15.....mind you having a tier 6 avg.

 

It is like we forgot how to play within a 60 day period after the implementation of this modification.

 

I wish I can get the replay of that video because I know I was not the only one who saw this WG conference


RNG was changed for Pen, MM was changed a few times. 
  MM was altered for platoons - so platoons saw platoons. 
  MM was altered to have tank types more evenly matched. 
 

The biggest hit to those where ‘upper middle class’ platoons who now saw a lot more Unicum toons. 
 

 


 

 
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shyw #1285 Posted 07 June 2020 - 02:30 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 07 June 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:


RNG was changed for Pen, MM was changed a few times. 
  MM was altered for platoons - so platoons saw platoons. 
  MM was altered to have tank types more evenly matched. 
 

The biggest hit to those where ‘upper middle class’ platoons who now saw a lot more Unicum toons. 
 

 

When I first started, there was no RNG. You had to learn about penetration, angle of attack, weak spots, where to shoot, etc. and when you did all right you got the most damage or a % based on those factors, not some Random Number Generated damage.

 

Not only that, now after 3 hits in a row, you get a Bonus Damage number, but in the Realistic Mode, you got damage based on thIs earlier game model.

 

And we are all aware of the so-called “Honeymoon Period”. Is it real or just in our collective minds. If real, it shows algorithms can be manipulated

 

i understand the evolution of the game, but the main purpose of the game for the players is for enjoyment, getting better, improving, winning, etc., but for WG it is about making $$$’s, diversity and adding to the player base which in turn alienates the established player base.

 

It is a delicate balance that must be broached.



wrecker1968 #1286 Posted 07 June 2020 - 02:36 PM

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I have a question for the moderators, Ask yourself how many MM threads you have deleted?

 Now here is the real question, Since it is a consistent Issue that Happens all the time from different players,  Have you brought it to WG attention More than once?

 Or is it understood that it is a lost cause or taboo subject?



_Crusader6_ #1287 Posted 07 June 2020 - 02:38 PM

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WG has answered a number of Q&A’s about MM. 

  What are you looking for from them? 


 

 
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wrecker1968 #1288 Posted 07 June 2020 - 03:47 PM

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It is actually a question more directed at you guys and how they answer you guys when you bring the problem to their attention.

 I honestly don't even know if it is your job to bring problems to their attention.

 But if it is, and this issue is continually brought up and discussed on the forum, I was curious if you guys bring it to their attention multiple times also, And how they respond to you.

 

 No disrespect just curious.

 

I continually see threads on this matter deleted (I understand the multiple thread deletions). So I think it is a concern of many players.



j_rod #1289 Posted 07 June 2020 - 04:07 PM

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View Postcrpl_hicks, on 06 June 2020 - 10:23 PM, said:

64 pages of ranting about MM??  And there are those who says it's not an issue??

 

Well I for one cannot believe that there can be so many lopsided games.  I mean statisically its gotta be weird to have so many lopsided games reported by so many players.  I really don't care If I lose in a good game, but NOT in a 7-0, 6-1 (whatever ratio you want), but not when 1 team over powers the other.  How can that be fair match making.

 

Yes...I'm willing to wait another 10-30 secs to get better matches.

 

I mean, tonight, Saturday June 6 @ 10:30 pm, I've had 4 lopsided losses in a row, 7-0 or 6-1...Is that normal??  Is it even possible??


1) that’s not how statistics works 

2) lopsided games happen even with balanced teams - one or two bad players can cause the a team to quickly be down and then it just snowballs from there 

3) yes this is normal; it happens at the upper leagues of ratings battles too where the teams are balanced 

4) until you and some of the other people that complain understand the points that have been made, you’re going to continue to be frustrated


Working as intended
 

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_Crusader6_ #1290 Posted 07 June 2020 - 04:38 PM

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View Postwrecker1968, on 07 June 2020 - 10:47 AM, said:

It is actually a question more directed at you guys and how they answer you guys when you bring the problem to their attention.

 I honestly don't even know if it is your job to bring problems to their attention.

 But if it is, and this issue is continually brought up and discussed on the forum, I was curious if you guys bring it to their attention multiple times also, And how they respond to you.

 

 No disrespect just curious.

 

I continually see threads on this matter deleted (I understand the multiple thread deletions). So I think it is a concern of many players.


Based on my experience, Most MM threads are caustic rants, they get trashed due to language. 
 

I guess my question to you is what do you want answered that hasn’t been already. 
  I haven’t talked to WG about MM recently, as I am perfectly happy with MM and WG’s answers to date on it.   
 

In my opinion the best answers to MM questions are answered by BlitzStars and Jylpah’s webpage. 
  For example the KV-5 has a 1,200 avg dmg, the IS-6 has 1,330. Both of those tanks can literally get 2k dmg in their sleep. 

As J_Rod has noted above all it takes is a early death or two and your team is at a major disadvantage.  
  Sadly we don’t have the server pop for an ‘inefficient’ player queue, so we get AFK and yolo Trolls (like VonT’s spotting Grille play) and it’s very hard for good players let alone average players to make up that deficit.   
 

The only think I blame WG about in MM is such poor in game tutorials and deficient in game stat check that let players delude themselves about their contributions. 
 

If you have some specific questions on MM you’d like answers to please post them, and I will do my best to get them answered. 

 

 


 

 
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wrecker1968 #1291 Posted 07 June 2020 - 05:17 PM

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Thank you, You answered my question and gave me some insightful information about MM.

 For me personally I do not have enough information nor probly will Ever obtain enough information to come to an educated Decision on whether it is good or badd. So with that in mind I have just chosen to accept what is given to me. I'm not saying it does not frustrate Me when I go 8 out of 10 battles low tier or see multiple unicoms on the other team with 40%ers or less on mine.

 Since I've learned to accept my own poor playing, I've decided to accept whatever MM, RNG and other factors are thrown at me for whatever reason.

 Once again thank you for the answer and Information.



shyw #1292 Posted 07 June 2020 - 05:32 PM

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The real challenge we have with MM is the issue with inexperienced players being able to buy their way into the upper tiers thus bringing down the quality of play that the experienced players want.

 

MM does not take that into consideration, but more towards the number and types of particular tanks in battles, especially when the number of players in the queue are lacking

 

People with less then 1,000 battles playing in tier 10 instead of advancing and earning their way there is the challenge that most of us believe WG does not wanna address because it will effect their bottom line $$$’s intake.



_Crusader6_ #1293 Posted 07 June 2020 - 05:44 PM

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View Postshyw, on 07 June 2020 - 12:32 PM, said:

The real challenge we have with MM is the issue with inexperienced players being able to buy their way into the upper tiers thus bringing down the quality of play that the experienced players want.

 

MM does not take that into consideration, but more towards the number and types of particular tanks in battles, especially when the number of players in the queue are lacking

 

People with less then 1,000 battles playing in tier 10 instead of advancing and earning their way there is the challenge that most of us believe WG does not wanna address because it will effect their bottom line $$$’s intake.


That complaint is as old as the game. 
  In 2014 there where sub 1k nubs in X, I know that as I was one of them...

I had 903 games when I unlocked the E5.  
  It was just as easy then to get to X, as we had three daily x2’s 

 

The biggest difference between then an now is the growth of the middle class Blitz’er. 
  The early Unicums could afk half the game and then do a 7:1 and win.  
 Most of those where WoT players who came to Blitz for Beta. 
  There wasn’t a lot of knowledge out for the rest of us and we got slaughtered.  
 


 

 
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shyw #1294 Posted 07 June 2020 - 10:45 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 07 June 2020 - 05:44 PM, said:


That complaint is as old as the game. 
  In 2014 there where sub 1k nubs in X, I know that as I was one of them...

I had 903 games when I unlocked the E5.  
  It was just as easy then to get to X, as we had three daily x2’s 

 

The biggest difference between then an now is the growth of the middle class Blitz’er. 
  The early Unicums could afk half the game and then do a 7:1 and win.  
 Most of those where WoT players who came to Blitz for Beta. 
  There wasn’t a lot of knowledge out for the rest of us and we got slaughtered.  
 

This was sooo true. I received the M60 way back when and played at Tier 10 and got my a$$ handed to me. It was brutal.

 

i understood real early that I did not belong there and dropped back to the tiers that I was gaining experience and learning in.

 

You respected Tier 10....I understood you had to earn that right.

 

You learn how to play +2/-2, no camo, limited number of maps, no Clans, no Toons, no wavy grass, climbing up mountain sides if in fast vehicles, etc.

 

These days, the inexperienced get there Buy using a CC and stay there thus diluting the quality of play.


Edited by shyw, 07 June 2020 - 10:47 PM.


crpl_hicks #1295 Posted 08 June 2020 - 02:06 AM

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View Postshyw, on 07 June 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

This was sooo true. I received the M60 way back when and played at Tier 10 and got my a$$ handed to me. It was brutal.

 

i understood real early that I did not belong there and dropped back to the tiers that I was gaining experience and learning in.

 

You respected Tier 10....I understood you had to earn that right.

 

You learn how to play +2/-2, no camo, limited number of maps, no Clans, no Toons, no wavy grass, climbing up mountain sides if in fast vehicles, etc.

 

These days, the inexperienced get there Buy using a CC and stay there thus diluting the quality of play.

 

I seem to recall when I started back in version 3.0?, I was told by alot of players to get better or quit.  The amount of Salt could kill a 200lb Slug!  Doesn't seem as nasty now & I wonder how much of what you say is really true.  Players feel entitled to play with no understanding or concern for the team.

 

I have always believed this is a TEAM game.  It's not just YOU vs a bunch of bots or YOU vs other Players.  It's YOUR team.  Game or not...some people don't seem to care about the rest.


 

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shyw #1296 Posted 08 June 2020 - 02:48 AM

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View Postcrpl_hicks, on 08 June 2020 - 02:06 AM, said:

 

I seem to recall when I started back in version 3.0?, I was told by alot of players to get better or quit.  The amount of Salt could kill a 200lb Slug!  Doesn't seem as nasty now & I wonder how much of what you say is really true.  Players feel entitled to play with no understanding or concern for the team.

 

I have always believed this is a TEAM game.  It's not just YOU vs a bunch of bots or YOU vs other Players.  It's YOUR team.  Game or not...some people don't seem to care about the rest.

Totally in agreement.
 

They’re peeps that are totally clueless as to what to do, how to play, how to play as a TEAM, roles of certain Tanks, strategies, etc.



_Crusader6_ #1297 Posted 18 June 2020 - 12:50 PM

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View Postshyw, on 07 June 2020 - 09:48 PM, said:

Totally in agreement.
 

They’re peeps that are totally clueless as to what to do, how to play, how to play as a TEAM, roles of certain Tanks, strategies, etc.


Again absolutely no different than 2014...

 

 


 

 
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NICKEL_AND_DIME #1298 Posted 18 June 2020 - 02:07 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 18 June 2020 - 07:50 AM, said:


Again absolutely no different than 2014...

 

 

 

I didn't have the plague of ghost rounds in 2014, but I acknowledge this is off topic and not related to MM.



Absolute_Sniper #1299 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:29 PM

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Update 7.0 for me personally has been the worst example of the playerbase to date. I get that everyone plays after the update. It’s freaking unplayable right now. Post update lag issues combined with the current playerbase is frustrating to say the least. For the first time in a long time, I’m not having fun playing. Big sad.

I used to have a picture here but tiny pic took an arrow to the knee....

 

https://discord.gg/twdc4Dq

 


_Crusader6_ #1300 Posted 18 June 2020 - 11:22 PM

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View PostAbsolute_Sniper, on 18 June 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

Update 7.0 for me personally has been the worst example of the playerbase to date. I get that everyone plays after the update. It’s freaking unplayable right now. Post update lag issues combined with the current playerbase is frustrating to say the least. For the first time in a long time, I’m not having fun playing. Big sad.


I am over 70% the last two days.  Play 9-10, farm...

 


 


 

 
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