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paulnjess #1301 Posted 24 June 2020 - 07:06 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 07 June 2020 - 02:38 PM, said:

WG has answered a number of Q&A’s about MM. 

  What are you looking for from them? 

Do something about it?

 

Oh, wait, did I say that out loud...



_Crusader6_ #1302 Posted 24 June 2020 - 07:17 PM

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View Postpaulnjess, on 24 June 2020 - 02:06 PM, said:

Do something about it?

 

Oh, wait, did I say that out loud...

 Maybe do more than 800 dmg in tier 9?  
   You are your own biggest issue. 
 

MM can’t explain your sub 1 DR and other stats, that’s on you.  
 


 

 
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paulnjess #1303 Posted 24 June 2020 - 07:52 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 24 June 2020 - 07:17 PM, said:

 Maybe do more than 800 dmg in tier 9?  
   You are your own biggest issue. 
 

MM can’t explain your sub 1 DR and other stats, that’s on you.  
 

So one player is the difference b/t 50%+ on a given day versus multiple days in a row of losing 60% of matches, most lopsided to the tune of 7-1 or 7-2?

 

I'm open to being proven wrong but I find that very hard to believe.



j_rod #1304 Posted 24 June 2020 - 07:58 PM

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View Postpaulnjess, on 24 June 2020 - 01:52 PM, said:

So one player is the difference b/t 50%+ on a given day versus multiple days in a row of losing 60% of matches, most lopsided to the tune of 7-1 or 7-2?

 

I'm open to being proven wrong but I find that very hard to believe.

 

In short, yes. There is a very strong correlation between damage output and winrate. The lower the damage/tier, the lower the winrate and vice versa. 

 

This has been shown statistically over a large data set, so to answer your question - over time, yes, one player impacts his/her winrate significantly. 

 

To Cru's point, your outputs are extremely low and your winrate is reflected by that. Any win you have is typically due to your team carrying you. So in some ways, you're right that you're at the mercy of MM and your team more so than others. 


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paulnjess #1305 Posted 24 June 2020 - 09:40 PM

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View Postj_rod, on 24 June 2020 - 07:58 PM, said:

 

In short, yes. There is a very strong correlation between damage output and winrate. The lower the damage/tier, the lower the winrate and vice versa. 

 

This has been shown statistically over a large data set, so to answer your question - over time, yes, one player impacts his/her winrate significantly. 

 

To Cru's point, your outputs are extremely low and your winrate is reflected by that. Any win you have is typically due to your team carrying you. So in some ways, you're right that you're at the mercy of MM and your team more so than others. 

Well, alright then.

 

Now that we know it's all my fault all the time I'll go back to getting my head bashed in. But first, I'll leave you with this:

 

 

 

 

 

 



j_rod #1306 Posted 24 June 2020 - 09:57 PM

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View Postpaulnjess, on 24 June 2020 - 03:50 PM, said:

Yes. Just tried posting a screen shot of my own but system won't post it. 4 players putting up goose-eggs. Did 60% of the total damage done on my team but I'm the reason for all the losses...


Anyone can pick out isolated games where they had bad teams and they played well. We’ve all had them. Case in point - I had a 3.9k mastery in a tier 7 tank yesterday (https://i.imgur.com/tRE1KI7.jpg)  and still got a draw (which is a loss) due to my team. It happens, but my 30 day winrate is 63%. Why? Bc I consistently contribute. 

 

If you’re suggesting your inability to win is due to your teams, then you’re failing to consider your own inability to have an impact in most games, and you’ll never improve. If you’d like me to provide you a breakdown of what damage/tier you need to consistently do to get X winrate, let me know and I’ll provide that for you. 


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paulnjess #1307 Posted 24 June 2020 - 10:11 PM

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View Postj_rod, on 24 June 2020 - 09:57 PM, said:


Anyone can pick out isolated games where they had bad teams and they played well. We’ve all had them. Case in point - I had a 3.9k mastery in a tier 7 tank yesterday (https://i.imgur.com/tRE1KI7.jpg)  and still got a draw (which is a loss) due to my team. It happens, but my 30 day winrate is 63%. Why? Bc I consistently contribute. 

 

If you’re suggesting your inability to win is due to your teams, then you’re failing to consider your own inability to have an impact in most games, and you’ll never improve. If you’d like me to provide you a breakdown of what damage/tier you need to consistently do to get X winrate, let me know and I’ll provide that for you. 

Isolated, sure.

 

Except is is not. It's multiple times, every day of every week. 7-1, 7-2, multiple afk's, YOLO brigade putting you in a 0-4 hole.

 

I get that the data means something but it also doesn't line up completely with what my eyes see every day when I play.



_Crusader6_ #1308 Posted 24 June 2020 - 10:57 PM

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View Postpaulnjess, on 24 June 2020 - 05:11 PM, said:

Isolated, sure.

 

Except is is not. It's multiple times, every day of every week. 7-1, 7-2, multiple afk's, YOLO brigade putting you in a 0-4 hole.

 

I get that the data means something but it also doesn't line up completely with what my eyes see every day when I play.


You don’t constantly deliver for your team.  
   End.

 

You can not claim you do, as your stats show that you constantly drag your team down.  
  You are missing key aspects of the game, and you are suffering due to that.  
 


 

 
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paulnjess #1309 Posted 24 June 2020 - 11:19 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 24 June 2020 - 10:57 PM, said:


You don’t constantly deliver for your team.  
   End.

 

You can not claim you do, as your stats show that you constantly drag your team down.  
  You are missing key aspects of the game, and you are suffering due to that.  
 

So, for the sake of clarity what I'm hearing is...

 

The fact that I don't average b/t 1500-2000 dmg is the reason I constantly end up with teams that go down 4-0 w/in 90 seconds on a near-daily basis.

 

 



j_rod #1310 Posted 24 June 2020 - 11:42 PM

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View Postpaulnjess, on 24 June 2020 - 05:19 PM, said:

So, for the sake of clarity what I'm hearing is...

 

The fact that I don't average b/t 1500-2000 dmg is the reason I constantly end up with teams that go down 4-0 w/in 90 seconds on a near-daily basis.


Let me flip it on you - do you think you get different teams than the rest of us?


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Absolute_Sniper #1311 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:00 AM

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View Postpaulnjess, on 24 June 2020 - 11:19 PM, said:

So, for the sake of clarity what I'm hearing is...

 

The fact that I don't average b/t 1500-2000 dmg is the reason I constantly end up with teams that go down 4-0 w/in 90 seconds on a near-daily basis.

 

 

Quite possibly. Had you been effectively hitting shots, the reds would either explode, or turn and face you. That would allow your team to not die as quickly and potentially land a few shots. It’s not a foolproof formula and there will in fact be games you simply cant win. The majority of the time however, the outcome is on your shoulders. Your ability or lack thereof determines your results. 20% of the games you’ll always win, 20% you’ll always lose. What can you do with the middle 60%?


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_Crusader6_ #1312 Posted 25 June 2020 - 01:27 AM

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View Postpaulnjess, on 24 June 2020 - 06:19 PM, said:

So, for the sake of clarity what I'm hearing is...

 

The fact that I don't average b/t 1500-2000 dmg is the reason I constantly end up with teams that go down 4-0 w/in 90 seconds on a near-daily basis.

 

 

In short yes.  
 

Some tanks need to do more dmg, and some need to do a little less.  
  Early spotting and denying positions to red can vastly assist ones team to a win.  
  Other tanks excel at being a blocking force and using attrition to whittle down red.  
 

But cardinal rule you need to do 200+ dmg/tier to break even.  
   
Im really not trying to be a jerk.  
  I lost a game earlier today where a teammate and I both did over 4K dmg and each had three kills.  
We just happened to have some sightseers on our team that drive around the battlefield, and two yolos who did zero.  
 

Believe it or not - we all see the same teams. The NA server isn’t that big.   
    Most players don’t have any real understanding of the game mechanics or tank characteristics.  
 They sit in open and get farmed most of the time.  
 

Watch some videos - do some reading here on tanks and game mechanics.  
 

I joined the forum in spring 2015 I was a struggling 50% player - who thought 43% in the E75 was not really bad.  I didn’t understand spotting ranges, or a slew of other stats.  I usually drove to the reds and shot at them.  
 

 


 

 
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_________Caesar_________ #1313 Posted 25 June 2020 - 02:20 AM

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MM is SO garbage, and SO broken and received SO many complaints that they had to sticky a thread to complain about it.  They funnel the complaints here, never read them, and then reprimand all new threads about how poor their MM is in hopes of hiding the info from other players.

It's quite obvious that they know it's trash, that they don't know how to fix it (or want it to remain bad such that players are forced to buy new $70 tanks to try to carry 1v7), and that their only intention is to pretend that the failing system doesn't exist.

 

Sure the playerbase is small - perhaps because the game is a money-sink void of any real mechanics - but I would surely rather wait in a 5 minute rating queue to play with players of my own caliber than get into a game quickly and play with 43% winrate players who somehow found their way into rating battles.

 

MM is disgusting, game is growing disgusting, and now rewards are being handed out to go watch WG streams which unfortunately are about as professionally-run as a twelve year old's daily Minecraft streams.  They're more focused on bringing more people into their money-pit than they are fixing the broken rusty money-pit.  It's gg boys.

 

BIG EDIT: bookmark this post and watch it get deleted to oblivion and flagged for some nonsense rule that doesn't exist.  Everything I've said was constructive.


Edited by _________Caesar_________, 25 June 2020 - 02:21 AM.


j_rod #1314 Posted 25 June 2020 - 02:38 AM

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View Post_________Caesar_________, on 24 June 2020 - 08:20 PM, said:

MM is SO garbage, and SO broken and received SO many complaints that they had to sticky a thread to complain about it.  They funnel the complaints here, never read them, and then reprimand all new threads about how poor their MM is in hopes of hiding the info from other players.

It's quite obvious that they know it's trash, that they don't know how to fix it (or want it to remain bad such that players are forced to buy new $70 tanks to try to carry 1v7), and that their only intention is to pretend that the failing system doesn't exist.

 

Sure the playerbase is small - perhaps because the game is a money-sink void of any real mechanics - but I would surely rather wait in a 5 minute rating queue to play with players of my own caliber than get into a game quickly and play with 43% winrate players who somehow found their way into rating battles.

 

MM is disgusting, game is growing disgusting, and now rewards are being handed out to go watch WG streams which unfortunately are about as professionally-run as a twelve year old's daily Minecraft streams.  They're more focused on bringing more people into their money-pit than they are fixing the broken rusty money-pit.  It's gg boys.

 

BIG EDIT: bookmark this post and watch it get deleted to oblivion and flagged for some nonsense rule that doesn't exist.  Everything I've said was constructive.


Most of the complaints are redundant, have already been answered, and come from very bad players that fail to see their own inadequacies.

 

You are a good player, but don’t speak to why you think MM is bad. Care to elaborate what you think the issue is and what solution you’d suggest?


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_________Caesar_________ #1315 Posted 25 June 2020 - 04:04 AM

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View Postj_rod, on 25 June 2020 - 02:38 AM, said:


Most of the complaints are redundant, have already been answered, and come from very bad players that fail to see their own inadequacies.

 

You are a good player, but don’t speak to why you think MM is bad. Care to elaborate what you think the issue is and what solution you’d suggest?

 

The Problem:

Rating battles' matchmaking logic prioritizes fast queue times over quality matchmaking.  It shoots for a (seemingly very arbitrary) average rating, which is vastly offset by silver players and unranked players (IE: average rating 3100 game where you(4500+RP) have two low-gold teammates and 3 unranked teammates, and one 4000+ if you're lucky.)

 

Who does this MM logic help?:

Bad players who want to spam ratings battles for that extra juicy credit/exp bonus that comes with ratings, and ultimately don't care much about the result of the game

 

Who does this MM logic hurt?:

Good players who genuinely want to win, and surely wouldn't mind waiting an extra minute or two to play with players in their own league

 

Why does WG cater their MM towards bad players?:

Harder games for good players = more ActionX/252u purchases, more gold rounds fired, more premium time purchased to cover the costs of trying to 1v7.

 


Edited by _________Caesar_________, 25 June 2020 - 04:08 AM.


j_rod #1316 Posted 25 June 2020 - 04:10 AM

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View Post_________Caesar_________, on 24 June 2020 - 10:04 PM, said:

 

The Problem:

Rating battles' matchmaking logic prioritizes fast queue times over quality matchmaking.  It shoots for a (seemingly very arbitrary) average rating, which is vastly offset by silver players and unranked players (IE: average rating 3100 game where you(4500+RP) have two low-gold teammates and 3 unranked teammates)

 

Who does this MM logic help?:

Bad players who want to spam ratings battles for that extra juicy credit/exp bonus that comes with ratings, and ultimately don't care much about the result of the game

 

Who does this MM logic hurt?:

Good players who genuinely want to win, and surely wouldn't mind waiting an extra minute or two to play with players in their own league

 

Why does WG cater their MM towards bad players?:

Harder games for good players = more ActionX/252u purchases, more gold rounds fired, more premium time purchased to cover the costs of trying to 1v7.

 

 

I take back what I said earlier after having you on green in ratings games. You ran your mouth the entire game, trying to tell several unicums what to do (not me), did 700 damage, and then blamed the team for the loss. 

 

As for your comments - this thread has primarily been about pub MM, not ratings. Ratings is entirely different and is meant to be “balanced”, but isn’t due to the points you made. I don’t think many people would disagree with you on ratings. 


Edited by j_rod, 25 June 2020 - 04:12 AM.

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paulnjess #1317 Posted 25 June 2020 - 09:11 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 25 June 2020 - 01:27 AM, said:

In short yes.  
 

Some tanks need to do more dmg, and some need to do a little less.  
  Early spotting and denying positions to red can vastly assist ones team to a win.  
  Other tanks excel at being a blocking force and using attrition to whittle down red.  
 

But cardinal rule you need to do 200+ dmg/tier to break even.  
   
Im really not trying to be a jerk.  
  I lost a game earlier today where a teammate and I both did over 4K dmg and each had three kills.  
We just happened to have some sightseers on our team that drive around the battlefield, and two yolos who did zero.  
 

Believe it or not - we all see the same teams. The NA server isn’t that big.   
    Most players don’t have any real understanding of the game mechanics or tank characteristics.  
 They sit in open and get farmed most of the time.  
 

Watch some videos - do some reading here on tanks and game mechanics.  
 

I joined the forum in spring 2015 I was a struggling 50% player - who thought 43% in the E75 was not really bad.  I didn’t understand spotting ranges, or a slew of other stats.  I usually drove to the reds and shot at them.  
 

 

Have done many of those things over the last months. Improvement in game-play doesn't show much in the overall stats unfortunately but I have tried; I want to be better at the game. I can tell you I'd raised my WR over that time frame and have lost nearly all of that increase over the last several weeks with days on end of wipeout losses.

 

I get it, I'm a fking 48-percenter. Plenty of other players are better than I am. But I know what my eyes see and most days it's teams that aren't even close to balanced and results that are absurd. And when it flips and I'm the beneficiary of said MM the good results aren't nearly as many.

 

So again, I don't dispute that the math matters. To my mind however, it doesn't tell a complete story as to how any one player can be on the losing end of so many lopsided battles every...damn...day.



_________Caesar_________ #1318 Posted 25 June 2020 - 09:42 PM

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View Postj_rod, on 25 June 2020 - 04:10 AM, said:

 

I take back what I said earlier after having you on green in ratings games. You ran your mouth the entire game, trying to tell several unicums what to do (not me), did 700 damage, and then blamed the team for the loss. 

 

As for your comments - this thread has primarily been about pub MM, not ratings. Ratings is entirely different and is meant to be “balanced”, but isn’t due to the points you made. I don’t think many people would disagree with you on ratings. 

Your largest mistake is assuming that "unicums" are better than regular players.  Tryharding in normal battles that don't even matter isn't hard lol. Most of the people with high winrates/avg dmg aren't team players whatsoever. Black Prince getting 700 damage while pushed 1v3 by tier 8s isn't all that laughable lol. Offering my game plan as a black prince isn't "telling people what to do" it's helping them to utilize my tank instead of damage farming while I die haha.  Your first instinct in any scenario is to be toxic instead of attempting to learn something.  I'm not claiming I'm among the best players in the game, I never have. I'm claiming that the MM system is broken, and that judging people's skill by how many times they queued up in a Tiger P in normal battles is silly.  I could no-life and grind a winrate too, I'd just rather play ratings.



j_rod #1319 Posted 25 June 2020 - 09:58 PM

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View Post_________Caesar_________, on 25 June 2020 - 03:42 PM, said:

Your largest mistake is assuming that "unicums" are better than regular players.  Tryharding in normal battles that don't even matter isn't hard lol. Most of the people with high winrates/avg dmg aren't team players whatsoever. Black Prince getting 700 damage while pushed 1v3 by tier 8s isn't all that laughable lol. Offering my game plan as a black prince isn't "telling people what to do" it's helping them to utilize my tank instead of damage farming while I die haha.  Your first instinct in any scenario is to be toxic instead of attempting to learn something.  I'm not claiming I'm among the best players in the game, I never have. I'm claiming that the MM system is broken, and that judging people's skill by how many times they queued up in a Tiger P in normal battles is silly.  I could no-life and grind a winrate too, I'd just rather play ratings.

 

Skill is based on a variety of factors, which is what WN7/WN8 looked to accomplish. That said, damage is very strongly correlated with winrate and if you're trying to tell me that these metrics don't reflect skill, then you have no clue what you're talking about. Sure, players can abuse OP tanks and one has to look at the body of work across all the tanks played, but if you're trying to tell me that regular players are as good as unicums, you've lost your mind. 

 

As for the MM system, you brought up your issues with ratings MM, which I largely agree with. It doesn't accomplish what it should accomplish and that's due to the relatively low number of players in queue. Your solution for longer queue times is absolutely a solution and would work except that WG has determined that long queue times cause players to lose interest. 

 

As for pub MM - it has been stated that it is completely random with the only balancing factors being +1/-1 by tier and similar number of tank classes on both teams. Beyond that, teams are selected randomly based on who is in the queue at any given moment. This means that over a period of time, you should see roughly the same teams that everyone else does. Your ability to win games is going to be based on your inputs over time, with damage being the most important. 

 

We all get bad teams and there are times when no matter how much one contributes, they're going to lose bc of the quality of the players on their team compared to the red team. That happens. But conversely, there are times one will win simply bc their team is stacked. The ability to win that 60% in between is what determines a player's skill, not MM. 

 

If there's any gripe to be had, it's how bad some of the players in game are right now. But that has nothing to do with MM. 


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Absolute_Sniper #1320 Posted 25 June 2020 - 10:46 PM

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View Post_________Caesar_________, on 25 June 2020 - 09:42 PM, said:

Your largest mistake is assuming that "unicums" are better than regular players.  Tryharding in normal battles that don't even matter isn't hard lol. Most of the people with high winrates/avg dmg aren't team players whatsoever. Black Prince getting 700 damage while pushed 1v3 by tier 8s isn't all that laughable lol. Offering my game plan as a black prince isn't "telling people what to do" it's helping them to utilize my tank instead of damage farming while I die haha.  Your first instinct in any scenario is to be toxic instead of attempting to learn something.  I'm not claiming I'm among the best players in the game, I never have. I'm claiming that the MM system is broken, and that judging people's skill by how many times they queued up in a Tiger P in normal battles is silly.  I could no-life and grind a winrate too, I'd just rather play ratings.

Credibility lost in the first sentence.  Unicums are indeed better than regular players. That’s why we call them unicums and not regular players. Your last sentence however takes the cake. 
 

Could you no-life and grind a good winrate? My guess is no but we should just take your word for it eh? 
Dunning-Kruger is strong here. 


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