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Bellatormonk #1561 Posted 22 February 2021 - 12:12 AM

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View Postj_rod, on 21 February 2021 - 10:22 PM, said:


I agree with everything you say, but is it a MM issue or player base issue? Regardless, what’s the solution?

When WG pays me to come up with a solution for their multi-million/billion product I will fill everyone in.



_Baroness #1562 Posted 22 February 2021 - 05:58 PM

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I wish they would use +2/-2 matchmaking.  I think the game would be far more dynamic.

http://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/_Baroness

Well, I supposed that's it for me.  It's been a fun ride and I truly appreciate all the tanking advice I've been given.  I'll be taking my Dr. Seuss books and Mr. Potato head and moving on to other pastures.  I have not tried the discord, but I think I'll give that a go next.  I wish everyone here the best and perhaps I'll see you on the battlefield.  o7


pilotharrison #1563 Posted 24 February 2021 - 08:20 AM

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I am consistently bottom tier in most of my battles. In 60 battles today, aside from playing tier 10 and my pref-MM tier 4s, I was bottom tier like 80% of the time, which is incredibly frustrating. Couple it with these teams... I literally can't carry these moron teams all the time... 

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_Crusader6_ #1564 Posted 24 February 2021 - 12:53 PM

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View Postpilotharrison, on 24 February 2021 - 03:20 AM, said:

I am consistently bottom tier in most of my battles. In 60 battles today, aside from playing tier 10 and my pref-MM tier 4s, I was bottom tier like 80% of the time, which is incredibly frustrating. Couple it with these teams... I literally can't carry these moron teams all the time... 


Play tier X if you don’t want to be low tier. 


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MaxxDamage #1565 Posted 24 February 2021 - 03:50 PM

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View Post_Baroness, on 22 February 2021 - 12:58 PM, said:

I wish they would use +2/-2 matchmaking.  I think the game would be far more dynamic.


The goal is to make us all 50% players.  +2/-2 works decidedly in favor of more skilled players and puts unskilled players at an even greater disadvantage.



Bellatormonk #1566 Posted 25 February 2021 - 04:35 PM

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View Postj_rod, on 21 February 2021 - 10:22 PM, said:


I agree with everything you say, but is it a MM issue or player base issue? Regardless, what’s the solution?

 

I hear the argument (not from you) that it's a player base issue instead of a MM issue.  I will maintain that these are two distinct issues because you will NEVER make the VAST player base that comprises 40%ers any better...EVER.  So then it becomes a MM issue in that decent to great players are tired of having to play the game with 2-5 other players who are for all intents and purposes mostly dead weight.  You might as well be playing with actual Bots (and I don't mean the current fashionable derogatory term for bad and great players).

 

As to what is the solution, well none apparently because WG maintains that skill based MM exists in Ratings, yet Ratings are not played by the vast majority of players and the stats don't count.  Therefore, WG says MMers (plural because Ratings and Normal are two separate MM algorithms) are working as intended.

 

Perhaps the solution is to simply remove stats in all modes (barring the ratings stat), or make Normal mode a ratings mode with stats still for those who simply cannot play w/o detailed measuring sticks for their gameplay .  Why shouldn't we be playing a Ratings mode as everyday mode?  People may argue that is basically skill based MM and it is to some extent although it's a pretty wide stat window for ratings right?  I mean Gold is what 3k-4k and you gain/lose 5-50 points per battle? Perhaps they reduce the ratings loss/win amount per match so people move up and down in the ratings a lot slower than the Ratings amounts currently are?

 

Seriously though all tinfoil hat complaints aside, the current player base is the worst it has ever been and continues to get worse for all the many reasons we all know about.  WG has to do something to mitigate and separate the terribads from everyone else (terribads being habitual 40%ers at 3k+ battles) or the anger and resentment will only get worse.

 

Playing matches where barely 3 people on each side of the match score over 500 dmg (T7-10) is just insane.  I mean that has to clearly show that nearly 8 people per match are either AFK or so severely lack the ability to play the game that they seriously might as well be replaced with Bots from the Tutorial.  Perhaps they might actually need to run a MM where 40%ers are cycled into a mode where Bots are actually used in matches at all tiers and once they attain at least a 50% WR they are back into a 100% PvP mode?

 

I will add this as well, the current MM and player base skill level is what will continue to drive decent to "great" players to drive nothing but the most OP tank they can find because that tank plus the player's skill is the only thing that can carry these crap teams team these days.  Good drivers will simply stop driving more diverse tanks because those tanks are not meant to carry a battle nor can they in most games.

 


Edited by Bellatormonk, 25 February 2021 - 04:56 PM.


cheasesteak #1567 Posted 25 February 2021 - 04:49 PM

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View Post_Baroness, on 22 February 2021 - 05:58 PM, said:

I wish they would use +2/-2 matchmaking.  I think the game would be far more dynamic.


the game as it stands now with current tank statistics is absolutely not balanced for +2/-2 MM.  Armor buffs to heavies at all tiers have already made it difficult for tanks with low pen guns when playing one tier down.  +2/-2  would actually kill dynamic play as many people would stop playing mediums and lights in favor of higher pen guns on TDs and heavies.  



_Baroness #1568 Posted 25 February 2021 - 06:21 PM

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View Postcheasesteak, on 25 February 2021 - 11:49 AM, said:


the game as it stands now with current tank statistics is absolutely not balanced for +2/-2 MM.  Armor buffs to heavies at all tiers have already made it difficult for tanks with low pen guns when playing one tier down.  +2/-2  would actually kill dynamic play as many people would stop playing mediums and lights in favor of higher pen guns on TDs and heavies.  

 

You're probably right.  But I can still wish...


http://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/_Baroness

Well, I supposed that's it for me.  It's been a fun ride and I truly appreciate all the tanking advice I've been given.  I'll be taking my Dr. Seuss books and Mr. Potato head and moving on to other pastures.  I have not tried the discord, but I think I'll give that a go next.  I wish everyone here the best and perhaps I'll see you on the battlefield.  o7


j_rod #1569 Posted 25 February 2021 - 07:48 PM

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_Baroness some great comments made that I want to fully address. I’ll come back to this later this evening.

Eventually given an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite number of Monkeys, they will come up with the complete works of Shakespeare. - C6 articulating the Infinite Monkey Theorem
 

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_Baroness #1570 Posted 25 February 2021 - 08:21 PM

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View Postj_rod, on 25 February 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

_Baroness some great comments made that I want to fully address. I’ll come back to this later this evening.

 

Sure.  Although I'm not sure which comments you might be referring to.

 

I read through some of the arguments above and I think folks blend bad players and MM too much.  Having lopsided games is due to the players, not MM.  Regardless of what stats or skillsets any of the 14 players has, it's always possible for several of them to just not really care or decide it's time to wipe.

 

If you tried to remove bad players and place them in a separate que, I don't think this would change things very much.  You might end up with a few less afk players, but you'll still have 7-0 and 0-7 matches.

 

If you tried to have MM line up players based on any kind of skill metric, you may have less 7-0, 0-7 games - but you'll have all the players working towards a ~50% win rate.  Statistically speaking.

 

At best, MM can try to line up the tanks based on their capabilities, ensure 3 or less TDs on each side - and then the rest is up to the players.  The only "truly" balanced MM would result in 7 tanks facing 7 tanks that were all exactly the same.  And even then, you would still have 7-0 and 0-7 matches.  But again, that's on the players.  And now I need to wipe.


http://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/_Baroness

Well, I supposed that's it for me.  It's been a fun ride and I truly appreciate all the tanking advice I've been given.  I'll be taking my Dr. Seuss books and Mr. Potato head and moving on to other pastures.  I have not tried the discord, but I think I'll give that a go next.  I wish everyone here the best and perhaps I'll see you on the battlefield.  o7


j_rod #1571 Posted 25 February 2021 - 08:53 PM

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View PostBellatormonk, on 25 February 2021 - 10:35 AM, said:

 

I hear the argument (not from you) that it's a player base issue instead of a MM issue.  I will maintain that these are two distinct issues because you will NEVER make the VAST player base that comprises 40%ers any better...EVER.  So then it becomes a MM issue in that decent to great players are tired of having to play the game with 2-5 other players who are for all intents and purposes mostly dead weight.  You might as well be playing with actual Bots (and I don't mean the current fashionable derogatory term for bad and great players).

While I agree that there's an average skill level out there, I fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that players can't improve with a little guidance. Are 40%ers going to become 60%ers over night? No. But can a 42% player start playing at a 45% level with a little guidance? Absolutely. Additionally, there is a difference between an average player and one that is completely incapable of contributing. IMHO, the latter needs to be segregated into their own queue as they only serve to detract from the game.

 

As to what is the solution, well none apparently because WG maintains that skill based MM exists in Ratings, yet Ratings are not played by the vast majority of players and the stats don't count.  Therefore, WG says MMers (plural because Ratings and Normal are two separate MM algorithms) are working as intended.

There is no easy solution bc there are pros and cons to both arguments. I used to be in the balanced MM camp, but after several conversations with V O P and others, I came to the conclusion that they were correct in that just brings everyone towards the mean.

 

Perhaps the solution is to simply remove stats in all modes (barring the ratings stat), or make Normal mode a ratings mode with stats still for those who simply cannot play w/o detailed measuring sticks for their gameplay .  Why shouldn't we be playing a Ratings mode as everyday mode?  People may argue that is basically skill based MM and it is to some extent although it's a pretty wide stat window for ratings right?  I mean Gold is what 3k-4k and you gain/lose 5-50 points per battle? Perhaps they reduce the ratings loss/win amount per match so people move up and down in the ratings a lot slower than the Ratings amounts currently are?

Moving strictly towards a rating mode is a great idea in general, but the concern is that it detracts from the accomplishments of those that have been playing a while. I don't know if this concern is valid or not, but I could see where a 60%er with 50k games might balk a bit at the idea. Additionally, the argument against this is that winrate is essentially a proxy for ratings anyways (viewed with a few caveats such as platoon percentage, tanks played, average tier, etc). 

 

Seriously though all tinfoil hat complaints aside, the current player base is the worst it has ever been and continues to get worse for all the many reasons we all know about.  WG has to do something to mitigate and separate the terribads from everyone else (terribads being habitual 40%ers at 3k+ battles) or the anger and resentment will only get worse.

100% behind this statement. A lot of it is simply a product of growth - player base has increased which means that there are a lot of newer players. This is then compounded by the clan missions, which were a great idea, but in practice has caused more terrible players to play together further decreasing the quality of the game. But back to your original statement - I'm 100% behind the point that the player base has degraded to the point that it is harder than ever before to actually impact the outcome of the game. 

 

Playing matches where barely 3 people on each side of the match score over 500 dmg (T7-10) is just insane.  I mean that has to clearly show that nearly 8 people per match are either AFK or so severely lack the ability to play the game that they seriously might as well be replaced with Bots from the Tutorial.  Perhaps they might actually need to run a MM where 40%ers are cycled into a mode where Bots are actually used in matches at all tiers and once they attain at least a 50% WR they are back into a 100% PvP mode?

I would love to see the average damage/tier for players in tiers 8-10 now as compared to 6 months or a year ago, but I've seen more and more of this. AFK players, players yoloing straight in and dying in the first 30 secs, etc. I had a game this morning in my AT8 where we all went the same direction and quite literally 4 of my teammates were dead before I even fired my first shot and I was rolling straight at them the entire time. While these types of games have always happened, they're absolutely happening with increased frequency. 

 

I will add this as well, the current MM and player base skill level is what will continue to drive decent to "great" players to drive nothing but the most OP tank they can find because that tank plus the player's skill is the only thing that can carry these crap teams team these days.  Good drivers will simply stop driving more diverse tanks because those tanks are not meant to carry a battle nor can they in most games.

Driving OP tanks and platooning are the two ways to win right now. 

 

See above. I agree with just about everything you said. 


Eventually given an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite number of Monkeys, they will come up with the complete works of Shakespeare. - C6 articulating the Infinite Monkey Theorem
 

It was never fair... but it was fun! - Krietenstein34 

 


Sturm_69 #1572 Posted 27 February 2021 - 09:33 PM

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After 6 years of gameplay the only thing that currently bothers me is the sheer size of the power difference between Tier 6 and Tier 7 premium tanks.  I used to thoroughly enjoy tier 6 for its many different styles of tanks.  When they added the drac and helsing, It was definitely harder getting uptiered against them but through thoughtful application you could still work through it in most instances with better play and planning.  The first major annoyance came with the smasher which blew out the idea of what OP truly meant. The past year with the inclusion of the annihilator,....well.... the tier is wrecked. I decided to play the new Czech line earlier. Started with the tier 6 of course. 7 games. 6 out of those first 7 games I was uptiered against an annihilator,or an anni and smasher, or double anni’s in every friekin game. So I would spend the game unloading my 3 shot, moving around the outsides, repeating process trying to be the pest. Meanwhile red heavies would be cleaning up. Anni 1-2-3 shots into a kuro....gone. Reload...1-2-3 shots into a crom b.....gone.  It’s insane. By the time they get to me I find myself 1 v3 or 4 with most of my health but facing anni’s and smashers in my little Czech autoloader,....yeah... right.  Ridiculous. I’ve not played the Anni much as it feels like majorly cheating.  Yeah I ave over 2k/game in it and it’s cheaky fun but it should be in tier 8 with the smasher. When a 40% can do more than 3k in a tier 7 without trying, without understanding any game mechanics, by simply pushing the forward button and relying on the tank’s brute strength alone..... it’s soooooo wrong.  Give tier 6 some balance back when facing tier 7. It should be tougher yes, but not ridiculously tough like it’s become. 

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j_rod #1573 Posted 27 February 2021 - 09:55 PM

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Sturm - I think  many of us would agree. It’s just not a MM issue

Eventually given an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite number of Monkeys, they will come up with the complete works of Shakespeare. - C6 articulating the Infinite Monkey Theorem
 

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__V_O_P__ #1574 Posted 28 February 2021 - 07:16 PM

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MM just now - by my reckoning Red had 2000HP advantage... balance...

 

Green

 Obj140

 Sheridan

 WZ121

 

Conq

 KpfP

 Skoda

 T30

 

Red

 Maus

 Maus

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 Conway

 KpfP

 Leo PTA

 Stand B



_Baroness #1575 Posted 01 March 2021 - 03:28 PM

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I love MM and MM loves me.

http://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/_Baroness

Well, I supposed that's it for me.  It's been a fun ride and I truly appreciate all the tanking advice I've been given.  I'll be taking my Dr. Seuss books and Mr. Potato head and moving on to other pastures.  I have not tried the discord, but I think I'll give that a go next.  I wish everyone here the best and perhaps I'll see you on the battlefield.  o7


_Crusader6_ #1576 Posted 01 March 2021 - 05:10 PM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 28 February 2021 - 02:16 PM, said:

MM just now - by my reckoning Red had 2000HP advantage... balance...

 

Green

 Obj140

 Sheridan

 WZ121

 

Conq

 KpfP

 Skoda

 T30

 

Red

 Maus

 Maus

 TVP

 

 Conway

 KpfP

 Leo PTA

 Stand B


MM knows you can handle it.  
 

 


I hate Annihilator spammers...  

 
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Bellatormonk #1577 Posted 05 March 2021 - 04:09 PM

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Why I don't feel guilty playing Annis.  When the Red Team gets 2 Annis, Smasher, Drac and LTTB.  Green...my Anni and misc T7 Tds, Tiger 1, etc.

_Crusader6_ #1578 Posted 05 March 2021 - 06:05 PM

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View PostBellatormonk, on 05 March 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

Why I don't feel guilty playing Annis.  When the Red Team gets 2 Annis, Smasher, Drac and LTTB.  Green...my Anni and misc T7 Tds, Tiger 1, etc.

Anni spam is what totally doesn’t make me feel bad about clubbing in 6-8, it’s so fun to wreck them.  
   
   #nerfthegarborator 

The fact it takes a Unicum in a tier 7 to equal a 40%’er in a Graborator is totally appalling. 

 

 


I hate Annihilator spammers...  

 
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I need more tanks...
 
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Bellatormonk #1579 Posted 05 March 2021 - 07:53 PM

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"The fact it takes a Unicum in a tier 7 to equal a 40%’er in a Graborator is totally appalling." 

 

This statement looks like an oxymoron at face value.  I will admit it is really strange how 40%ers can score 3k dmg in an Anni.  Does this mean Unicums are not doing their job in killing them?  I truly don't know either because I see these types of matches nonstop as well.  Does this mean skill is almost null and void and the tank is what actually makes the player these days? 

 

What we need is some training room videos of 7v7 Annis only.  Team A 40%ers and Team B 50%+...what would the results be? 



_Crusader6_ #1580 Posted 05 March 2021 - 09:55 PM

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View PostBellatormonk, on 05 March 2021 - 02:53 PM, said:

"The fact it takes a Unicum in a tier 7 to equal a 40%’er in a Graborator is totally appalling." 

 

This statement looks like an oxymoron at face value.  I will admit it is really strange how 40%ers can score 3k dmg in an Anni.  Does this mean Unicums are not doing their job in killing them?  I truly don't know either because I see these types of matches nonstop as well.  Does this mean skill is almost null and void and the tank is what actually makes the player these days? 

 

What we need is some training room videos of 7v7 Annis only.  Team A 40%ers and Team B 50%+...what would the results be? 


I’m saying if your playing a T20 or other rather limp tier 7, you need to be on point 119% of the time even facing an Anni driven by a less efficient player.  
    It is so past broken that while I personally don’t fear them in 6-8, they can demolish players that aren’t at my level fairly easily - and occasionally I get clobbered by one too.  
 

Heaven help you if you face a high 60%’er 2K plus dmg toon running Smasher/Annihilator.  
 


I hate Annihilator spammers...  

 
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