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j_rod #1781 Posted 26 August 2021 - 09:47 PM

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View PostJefeMac, on 26 August 2021 - 02:19 PM, said:

And that my friend is the very crux of my frustration. WG pushes to have players platoon, yet aren’t able to grasp that by having 60%+ players in 1 platoon, yet the only balancing mm factor is by tank class is a HUGE, MAJOR blindspot in their approach.
 

I know I’m an average player on my best day, but I can be a good teammate.Still, I really can’t recall the last time I was on the wrong end of a 7-0/7-1 steam roll and the 60% WR platoon was on the losing side.  


I get that platooning is a way to drive retention. Logically if you’re playing alongside another player it stands to reason that you’re more invested and feel like you’re more connected to the game.

 

So yeah, I get that. But to your point, most people that platoon together do so with someone of similar skill and therefore are ipso facto skewing their team’s average skill one direction or another. And since platoons are matched up against other platoons this means that when a high skill platoon is matched up against a low skill platoon then it is exponentially affecting the skill gap between the two teams.

 

Also, there’s nothing that can be done about this, but when you draw two low skill players, the chance that they do something completely boneheaded is compounded. 
 

So when it comes down to it, the only thing IMHO that can be reasonably done about this is for WG to remove the requirement for a platoon to be matched with another platoon. At least the game will be balanced strictly by tank tier/type at that point (theoretically).


Edited by j_rod, 26 August 2021 - 11:08 PM.

Eventually given an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite number of Monkeys, they will come up with the complete works of Shakespeare. - C6 articulating the Infinite Monkey Theorem
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JefeMac #1782 Posted 26 August 2021 - 10:30 PM

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View Postj_rod, on 26 August 2021 - 09:47 PM, said:


I get that platooning is a way to drive retention. Logically if you’re playing alongside another player it stands to reason that you’re more invested and feel like you’re more connected to the game.

 

So yeah, I get that. But to your point, most people that platoon together do so with someone of similar skill and therefore are ipso facto skewing their team’s average skill one direction or another. And since platoons are matched up against other platoons this means that when a high skill platoon is matched up against a low skill platoon then it is exponentially affecting the skill gap between the two teams.

 

Also, there’s nothing that can be done about this, but when you draw two low skill players, the chance that they do something completely boneheaded is compounded. 
 

So when it comes down to it, the only thing that can be reasonably done about this is for WG to remove the requirement for a platoon to be matched with another platoon. At least the game will be balanced strictly by tank tier/type at that point (theoretically).

Interesting thought ! 



 

When in doubt, observe and ask questions. When certain, observe at length and ask many more questions.” – General Patton
 


54noob #1783 Posted 01 September 2021 - 10:20 AM

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So, most players have agreed and settled that MM is random and players are paired into team without considering individual player capability, i.e. WR.

 

However, I feel MM is capable of and doing much more behind the scene, kind of like the 'soft-stats' that WG doesn't publicly disclose. Yes, adding new rules to MM might impact queue time, but then again, even that queue time can be addressed, if WG chooses to. After all, WG did come up with the BOTs for the low battle count/tier players, so anything is possible.

 

 

Over time we have seen MM with +/-2 and not considering tank type in matches to now where we have +/- 1 and similar # of tank type on both side (whenever possible). Today's MM can also detect out of tier plat, and match the RED with the same out of tier plat. So, I don't think it's difficult for WG to add more rules/constraints into the MM. Given that we had preferential top tier for certain tanks in the early days, so I'm fairly certain MM can factor additional rules, if necessary. If WG can force Smasher/Anni to face-off against Smasher/Anni in game, it's definitely possible to disallow incompetent player plat (or unless there's another incompetent plat on the other team) to minimize the skill gap at the high tiers.

 

 

 

Anyway, I don't think MM is as random as people assumed to be, yes, there is some randomness to it, and the random can be controlled by assigning additional % (i.e. odds), just look at how the crate works. WG tells us that crate prizes are random (which it is), but that randomness has a precise % assigned to it. So, MM is NOT random as we think. Have you noticed that 100% crew tank is more likely to be slotted into the 'bottom' tier tank in game than stock tank? We can agree that there is probably some % assignment there too.

 

 

 

So, in the programming world, randomness or not, everything is 'calculated' by code logic. In order to speed up the calculation, there are a lot of pre-calculation to minimize performance impact. Programs can assume that random player in a certain tank will likely play the same tank again, and pre-calculate player's tank (attributes or whatever MM attributes required) for the next match. This is why when you finish one game and join another game immediately, often time the match begins with minimum wait time. This can be contributed to MM pre-calculating player/tank recent battle data. For player who just login into the game, it might take a bit longer for their first match to begin. If you try changing tank type and tier after every game, you might notice the MM taking a bit longer to get you into the next match. The point is that adding more rules or constraint into MM won’t impact calculation performance. As for queue time impact, it will depend on player count and # of constraints, i.e. Regular/Supremacy, same mode or not.

 

 

 

All in all, my take on MM is that it can be 100% manipulated. Manipulated or not, we are all on the same platform and face the same MM. As for the recent discussion on incompetent-plat, I do think WG is aware and honestly, they don't care. Game with variety creates more excitement, positive or negative. While nobody likes losing games due to incompetent plat widening the team skill gap, but that's also the similar logic why WG doesn't want to use WR or any skill-based calculation in random match. They want players to rejoice (suffer) the excitement of lob-sided win (loss)… this way we will play more, buy more premium time and OP tanks!

 


Edited by 54noob, 01 September 2021 - 10:22 AM.


j_rod #1784 Posted 01 September 2021 - 01:59 PM

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View Post54noob, on 01 September 2021 - 04:20 AM, said:

So, most players have agreed and settled that MM is random and players are paired into team without considering individual player capability, i.e. WR.

 

However, I feel MM is capable of and doing much more behind the scene, kind of like the 'soft-stats' that WG doesn't publicly disclose. Yes, adding new rules to MM might impact queue time, but then again, even that queue time can be addressed, if WG chooses to. After all, WG did come up with the BOTs for the low battle count/tier players, so anything is possible.

 

 

Over time we have seen MM with +/-2 and not considering tank type in matches to now where we have +/- 1 and similar # of tank type on both side (whenever possible). Today's MM can also detect out of tier plat, and match the RED with the same out of tier plat. So, I don't think it's difficult for WG to add more rules/constraints into the MM. Given that we had preferential top tier for certain tanks in the early days, so I'm fairly certain MM can factor additional rules, if necessary. If WG can force Smasher/Anni to face-off against Smasher/Anni in game, it's definitely possible to disallow incompetent player plat (or unless there's another incompetent plat on the other team) to minimize the skill gap at the high tiers.

 

 

 

Anyway, I don't think MM is as random as people assumed to be, yes, there is some randomness to it, and the random can be controlled by assigning additional % (i.e. odds), just look at how the crate works. WG tells us that crate prizes are random (which it is), but that randomness has a precise % assigned to it. So, MM is NOT random as we think. Have you noticed that 100% crew tank is more likely to be slotted into the 'bottom' tier tank in game than stock tank? We can agree that there is probably some % assignment there too.

 

 

 

So, in the programming world, randomness or not, everything is 'calculated' by code logic. In order to speed up the calculation, there are a lot of pre-calculation to minimize performance impact. Programs can assume that random player in a certain tank will likely play the same tank again, and pre-calculate player's tank (attributes or whatever MM attributes required) for the next match. This is why when you finish one game and join another game immediately, often time the match begins with minimum wait time. This can be contributed to MM pre-calculating player/tank recent battle data. For player who just login into the game, it might take a bit longer for their first match to begin. If you try changing tank type and tier after every game, you might notice the MM taking a bit longer to get you into the next match. The point is that adding more rules or constraint into MM won’t impact calculation performance. As for queue time impact, it will depend on player count and # of constraints, i.e. Regular/Supremacy, same mode or not.

 

 

 

All in all, my take on MM is that it can be 100% manipulated. Manipulated or not, we are all on the same platform and face the same MM. As for the recent discussion on incompetent-plat, I do think WG is aware and honestly, they don't care. Game with variety creates more excitement, positive or negative. While nobody likes losing games due to incompetent plat widening the team skill gap, but that's also the similar logic why WG doesn't want to use WR or any skill-based calculation in random match. They want players to rejoice (suffer) the excitement of lob-sided win (loss)… this way we will play more, buy more premium time and OP tanks!

 


Great post 54noob, nicely articulated!

 

I do think it’s plausible that there are some behind the scenes aspect of MM (Annihilator pairing as example), but my two takeaways in general are that 1) there’s no reason to believe MM treats any player differently than another and 2) we still haven’t statistically see any of this bear out from the data we have available. Granted, we haven’t analyzed specific items such as the Annihilator pairing, but from what we have seen, the teams that we draw show to be random. 


Eventually given an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite number of Monkeys, they will come up with the complete works of Shakespeare. - C6 articulating the Infinite Monkey Theorem
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EL_Din_46 #1785 Posted 01 September 2021 - 04:51 PM

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The ease with which balance requirements can be changed is one of the features of the current MM scheme. WG has said that this is one of the benefits to that scheme that they value. There are good reasons to think that not only could they make such changes (on the fly if needed) but that they also try out such things to see if they work in the real world.

 

WG previously announced that they were running a test on the EU and RU servers where they would place “consistently underperforming players” into the new player matchmaking queue. They later announced that the test was being extended. After the tutorial system was reworked Meadsy69 posted a video of an NA match where both bots and apparently “underperforming” players were included in an NA new player battle. Wargaming can and has tried, but has said nothing that I can find about how the tests went or whether some version of them is continuing.

 

By the way, jylpah has conducted a significant statistical analysis of two special mode series that he believes showed a test of some type of skill balancing. He and Merplug attempted a second analysis that apparently was unsuccessful. Both used replays that had been loaded into WotIspector.com so any routine replays that had been uploaded helped make it possible. They discussed this on the EU forum and, being stat nerds, might do so again. 


 

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NUBKiller2021 #1786 Posted 23 September 2021 - 12:14 AM

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Matchmaking is just bad and why WOTB can't fix it is anyone's guess.
I suspect mm is manipulated to increase profit

__V_O_P__ #1787 Posted 23 September 2021 - 12:24 AM

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View PostNUBKiller2021, on 22 September 2021 - 07:14 PM, said:

Matchmaking is just bad and why WOTB can't fix it is anyone's guess.
I suspect mm is manipulated to increase profit


NUB, you're fighting bots in the lower tiers with fewer than 400 total battles. you don't even have MM yet...

 

edit: "illness is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

 

edit edit: "traffic is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

 

edit edit edit: "COMCAST is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

 

edit edit edit edit: "star wars episode 1 is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"


Edited by __V_O_P__, 23 September 2021 - 12:26 AM.


_YukariAkiyamaBestWaifu #1788 Posted 23 September 2021 - 07:46 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 23 September 2021 - 08:24 AM, said:

edit edit edit edit: "star wars episode 1 is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

the new star wars movies are horrendous........not to mention the whole drama surrounding them... urg


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sl4b #1789 Posted 11 October 2021 - 02:29 AM

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ik ik, not another MM thread. But I want to provide some thoughts that I haven't seen talked about much (or please correct me if they have). I'll be brief. 

 

1. Experience. I---and judging from the constant state of discontent among the community, most---get some insanely bad streaks of teams, regularly. Last night I lost 6 in a row. The chances of a 50/50 coin flip going the same way all 6 times are 1.56%. And that's not even taking into account that I am a lot better than an avg player and did top dmg every time. So in reality it must be way less than 1%. Yet losing 6 battles in a row isn't even that many, or that weird (which I know you all relate to). The point being, the MM is far too streaky to be as random as advertised. 1% chance outcomes should not be occurring once a week (1/7) or even once a month (1/30). Yet we see that they are. What other explanation is there?(Please correct any missteps in logic here). 

 

2. Incentive. This one is more interesting. I always hear the streamers (i.e. people profiting off the game) speak to the effect of "lol you think WG cares enough to rig the MM against YOU? Git Gud loser!!1". Rightttt. Ok, I  grant that WG doesn't have any incentive to wreck my personal stats. However, we all know what their incentive IS. They are greedy as all hell. It's apparent in every aspect of the game. They are waging psychological warfare on your dopamine receptors with all the (totally unnecessary) currencies, points, offers, crates, etc. Their tactics include gambling, false advertising, overcharging in order to later give the illusion of 'deals', over-the-top statkeeping--causing you to monitor performance, and keeping you in a constant state of 'work' toward some reward. The illusion of progress. So the very simple question is, if the entire game is designed to farm your cash, why WOULDN'T the MM be set up to do so as well?

 

How? By incorporating data like how long you've played, how much you play, how much you pay, what you pay for, how much skill you've developed, etc. Maybe give new and f2p players solid teams that get them hooked, give occasional buyers decent enough teams to convert them into regular buyers, give addicts the absolute dreg teams since their money is already in hand regardless. I can hardly guess the specifics because I'm not versed in the psychology of addiction, but it's all so obvious. The MM isn't rigged against you personally, it's rigged against the type of player you are. The deeper you get in, the more MM can and will abuse you. They are putting significant psychological research into every other part of the game, with no moral regard, so why on earth would MM be an exception? Ask yourself why the game even depends so wholly on this secretive MM algorithm? Why not let people simply join public servers and play with whomever they want, if it's all so random?

 

Very interested to hear arguments against these, particularly #2.  Also, given that the game is rigged, I think it's okay, provided that you recognize it as such as thus don't bother keeping track of stats.  It's still a wonder of gameplay mechanics, history, and math that can obviously be pretty fun.

 

edit: inb4 'banned: he knows too much!'

 

[ Moved to Official MM Thread ] Mod1

 

 

 



j_rod #1790 Posted 11 October 2021 - 03:36 AM

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Why would we respond to these points here when they’ve already been discussed in detail on the official MM thread?

The only thing I’ll tell you is that it’s relatively easily to see if there’s thing non-random going on based on whatever factor you want to measure (team avg winrate as an example) given a large enough data set, and this work has already been done multiple times with it being proven out time and again that MM is agnostic to player attributes.

Eventually given an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite number of Monkeys, they will come up with the complete works of Shakespeare. - C6 articulating the Infinite Monkey Theorem
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rosgrim #1791 Posted 11 October 2021 - 04:27 AM

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View Postsl4b, on 11 October 2021 - 02:29 AM, said:

ik ik, not another MM thread. But I want to provide some thoughts that I haven't seen talked about much (or please correct me if they have). I'll be brief. 

 

1. Experience. I---and judging from the constant state of discontent among the community, most---get some insanely bad streaks of teams, regularly. Last night I lost 6 in a row. The chances of a 50/50 coin flip going the same way all 6 times are 1.56%. And that's not even taking into account that I am a lot better than an avg player and did top dmg every time. So in reality it must be way less than 1%. Yet losing 6 battles in a row isn't even that many, or that weird (which I know you all relate to). The point being, the MM is far too streaky to be as random as advertised. 1% chance outcomes should not be occurring once a week (1/7) or even once a month (1/30). Yet we see that they are. What other explanation is there?(Please correct any missteps in logic here). 

 

2. Incentive. This one is more interesting. I always hear the streamers (i.e. people profiting off the game) speak to the effect of "lol you think WG cares enough to rig the MM against YOU? Git Gud loser!!1". Rightttt. Ok, I  grant that WG doesn't have any incentive to wreck my personal stats. However, we all know what their incentive IS. They are greedy as all hell. It's apparent in every aspect of the game. They are waging psychological warfare on your dopamine receptors with all the (totally unnecessary) currencies, points, offers, crates, etc. Their tactics include gambling, false advertising, overcharging in order to later give the illusion of 'deals', over-the-top statkeeping--causing you to monitor performance, and keeping you in a constant state of 'work' toward some reward. The illusion of progress. So the very simple question is, if the entire game is designed to farm your cash, why WOULDN'T the MM be set up to do so as well?

 

How? By incorporating data like how long you've played, how much you play, how much you pay, what you pay for, how much skill you've developed, etc. Maybe give new and f2p players solid teams that get them hooked, give occasional buyers decent enough teams to convert them into regular buyers, give addicts the absolute dreg teams since their money is already in hand regardless. I can hardly guess the specifics because I'm not versed in the psychology of addiction, but it's all so obvious. The MM isn't rigged against you personally, it's rigged against the type of player you are. The deeper you get in, the more MM can and will abuse you. They are putting significant psychological research into every other part of the game, with no moral regard, so why on earth would MM be an exception? Ask yourself why the game even depends so wholly on this secretive MM algorithm? Why not let people simply join public servers and play with whomever they want, if it's all so random?

 

Very interested to hear arguments against these, particularly #2.  Also, given that the game is rigged, I think it's okay, provided that you recognize it as such as thus don't bother keeping track of stats.  It's still a wonder of gameplay mechanics, history, and math that can obviously be pretty fun.

 

edit: inb4 'banned: he knows too much!'

 

 

 

 

 

 


There is a specific tread about MM. In there you will find many answers and opinions.

 

But.....basically you answered to yourself in your own tread.

Log story short: every game is designed to produce revenues (because we are talking about companies) and every game has something called "dynamic difficulties adjustment" that most probably include something about MM.

If you think to get something different here or somewhere else, then you are simply dreaming.

Remember nobody force you to play this game. It is what it is. And....as you already stated; it is the same for everyone.

 

The "secret" of outstanding players is:  learn to manage that as part of the game (again it is what it is).

In fact (applying the logic that you seems to like) there are players that no matter what are super unicum and over 60% WR and even better. 

By the way everybody get a day with negative streaks. 

You should consider your results in the long term.

 


Edited by rosgrim, 11 October 2021 - 04:31 AM.


MarBearCat #1792 Posted 11 October 2021 - 04:36 AM

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My life is rigged. :facepalm:

 

 

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_YSoSerious #1793 Posted 11 October 2021 - 04:37 AM

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View Postrosgrim, on 10 October 2021 - 08:27 PM, said:


There is a specific tread about MM. In there you will find may answers and opinions.

 

But.....basically you answered to yourself in your own tread.

Log story short: every game is designed to produce revenues (because we are talking about companies) and every game has something called "dynamic difficulties adjustment" that most probably include something about MM.

If you think to get something different here or somewhere else, then you are simply dreaming.

 

The "secret" of outstanding players is:  learn to manage that as part of the game.

By the way everybody get a day with negative streaks. 

You should consider your results in the long term.

 

 

Basically this, and for OP a severe lack of understanding of how statistics work. Don't worry, OP, we humans are ill-equipped to handle big numbers and phenomena. If we don't have the answer, our minds conjure up anything that seems reasonable and just go with it. It boggles the mind how a few extremely intelligent people keep all of humanity from going back to cave dwellings and witch hunts-barely.



dangerousdan26 #1794 Posted 11 October 2021 - 05:21 AM

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Matchmaking has sucked for as long as I can remember.  Anyone who says different isn't being honest or is on the WOTB payroll

Edited by dangerousdan26, 11 October 2021 - 05:21 AM.


dangerousdan26 #1795 Posted 11 October 2021 - 05:23 AM

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View PostNUBKiller2021, on 23 September 2021 - 12:14 AM, said:

Matchmaking is just bad and why WOTB can't fix it is anyone's guess.
I suspect mm is manipulated to increase profit

I agree! 
VOP, matchmaking is there for every player.  WOTB can't even match BOTS fairly 



dangerousdan26 #1796 Posted 11 October 2021 - 05:24 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 23 September 2021 - 12:24 AM, said:


NUB, you're fighting bots in the lower tiers with fewer than 400 total battles. you don't even have MM yet...

 

edit: "illness is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

 

edit edit: "traffic is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

 

edit edit edit: "COMCAST is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

 

edit edit edit edit: "star wars episode 1 is just bad and why they can't fix it is anyone's guess"

VOP, do you work for WOTB?  Of course the matchmaker functions at all tiers and with all players, including BOTS

 



THERebrth #1797 Posted 11 October 2021 - 05:37 AM

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View Postrosgrim, on 10 October 2021 - 10:27 PM, said:


There is a specific tread about MM. In there you will find many answers and opinions.

 

But.....basically you answered to yourself in your own tread.

Log story short: every game is designed to produce revenues (because we are talking about companies) and every game has something called "dynamic difficulties adjustment" that most probably include something about MM.

If you think to get something different here or somewhere else, then you are simply dreaming.

Remember nobody force you to play this game. It is what it is. And....as you already stated; it is the same for everyone.

 

The "secret" of outstanding players is:  learn to manage that as part of the game (again it is what it is).

In fact (applying the logic that you seems to like) there are players that no matter what are super unicum and over 60% WR and even better. 

By the way everybody get a day with negative streaks. 

You should consider your results in the long term.

 

^^^

 

we get it OP ur pissed off, but we are all as pissed off as you and that includes me. for all we know MM might be rigged but in all honesty it's probably very subtle so skill in the long run still matters. So keep trying to carry and do top damage so at least you know for a FACT that if you lose games it's not always ur fault. 

I can honestly say with confidence that It is almost never my own fault that I lose my games. I have been vocal in calling directions and trying to lead the team into the good positions in battle. Especially if I am sure in how the team should play. But ofc there will constantly be tankers who have no plan, doesn't want to listen, and are either toxic, bad, or a combination of both, So picking up the slack is where unicums come in. Even if some games are unwinnable at least you can lose looking good no matter how god damn frustrating it is knowing how easy it is to win more of your games if ur team just listens or knows how to actually play. Its even more frustrating when they actually listen but do not know how to play so at the end of the day....

 

it eeeeeez what it eeeeeez 

 

and carry harder ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 


Raging Dumbo


Handsome_Squidward_ #1798 Posted 11 October 2021 - 06:09 AM

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Totally rigged.

—Formerly “virus_SHAME”

    WoT PC Defector


generalhonks #1799 Posted 11 October 2021 - 11:19 AM

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I’ve never seen any evidence of rigged MM personally. I get good battles a lot, and I haven’t lost too many battles in a row for a long time. That doesn’t mean that MM is not rigged, after all, I do buy tanks and BPs a lot. So if MM is based off how much you pay, maybe that’s why I’m seemingly immune.

No I'm not defending German technical superiority, I'm stating the ****ing obvious!

 


_Crusader6_ #1800 Posted 11 October 2021 - 12:23 PM

    Please don’t go to town.

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View Postdangerousdan26, on 11 October 2021 - 12:21 AM, said:

Matchmaking has sucked for as long as I can remember.  Anyone who says different isn't being honest or is on the WOTB payroll

 

View Postdangerousdan26, on 11 October 2021 - 12:23 AM, said:

I agree! 
VOP, matchmaking is there for every player.  WOTB can't even match BOTS fairly 

https://www.blitzstars.com/player/com/dangerousdan26

View Postdangerousdan26, on 11 October 2021 - 12:24 AM, said:

VOP, do you work for WOTB?  Of course the matchmaker functions at all tiers and with all players, including BOTS

 


Dangerous to his own team Dan again with his failed seal clubber rants. 
   So Dan, tell us, you managed to break 60% this month, by clubbing tier 4-6, do you realize that you are proving the fact that MM isn’t rigged by doing that?  
 

 
  


I hate Annihilator spammers...  
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