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__V_O_P__ #2121 Posted 17 June 2022 - 12:00 AM

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View PostJefeMac, on 16 June 2022 - 03:12 PM, said:

Thinking out loud - spit balling. Could mm utilize a different criteria like say Blitzstars 30 day data of either WR or the rating that service provides? Again, not a tech guy, thinking out loud here. 
 

I unsure what the issue is but man, I’m getting SLAUGHTERED in platoons recently. The imbalance provided by 1 team having unis/su’s in a platoon and the other team getting “not so uni/su” is very challenging for lesser players like me. 


two things...

 

1. toons shouldn't be matched in my opinion...

 

2. using another metric (any other metric) would a. just be another version of Ratings... and b. drive players to 50% win rate... so reward bad players and punish better ones. 



JefeMac #2122 Posted 17 June 2022 - 03:15 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 17 June 2022 - 12:00 AM, said:


two things...

 

1. toons shouldn't be matched in my opinion...can you expand on why ? 

 

2. using another metric (any other metric) would a. just be another version of Ratings... and b. drive players to 50% win rate... so reward bad players and punish better ones. 

 



 

“And yet when you hear people say ‘conspiracy theory’ that’s designed to pluck this little part of your brain that says, well, that thing’s not true,” said Attkisson. “And I always keep an open mind and say, that crazy thing that they say is a conspiracy theory may well have some truth in it.”
 


__V_O_P__ #2123 Posted 17 June 2022 - 10:15 AM

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View PostJefeMac, on 16 June 2022 - 10:15 PM, said:

 


it’s more the other way around.  Why should they be matched (as opposed to not)?
 

I think a pairing of good or bad players has a significant impact on a team. A toon of good players is usually better than two separate good players on your team. A toon of bad players (feels) like it’s way worse than two separate bad players. 
 

when WG matches toons there’s really only three possibilities (there’s other ways of accounting for toon quality other than “good” and “bad”   )

 

two good toons - very rare but usually a good game


two bad toons - I guess this is more common and the badness cancels itself out for everyone?


one good vs one bad - which is really the focus and problem here. If I toon with a good player and end up facing bad toon after bad toon then that really is a significant advantage for me.

 

the original WG logic seemed to be a team with a (good) toon has a big advantage. So best match the green toon with a red toon, not thinking that in most cases the red toon would be worse, and therefore just compound the problem. So that’s why I think not matching toons would be better. 


Edited by __V_O_P__, 17 June 2022 - 10:16 AM.


dport02 #2124 Posted 18 June 2022 - 12:38 AM

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MM discussion is evidence that perpetual energy is possibly
RNG is rigged !

j_rod #2125 Posted 18 June 2022 - 12:53 PM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 17 June 2022 - 04:15 AM, said:


it’s more the other way around.  Why should they be matched (as opposed to not)?
 

I think a pairing of good or bad players has a significant impact on a team. A toon of good players is usually better than two separate good players on your team. A toon of bad players (feels) like it’s way worse than two separate bad players. 
 

when WG matches toons there’s really only three possibilities (there’s other ways of accounting for toon quality other than “good” and “bad”   )

 

two good toons - very rare but usually a good game


two bad toons - I guess this is more common and the badness cancels itself out for everyone?


one good vs one bad - which is really the focus and problem here. If I toon with a good player and end up facing bad toon after bad toon then that really is a significant advantage for me.

 

the original WG logic seemed to be a team with a (good) toon has a big advantage. So best match the green toon with a red toon, not thinking that in most cases the red toon would be worse, and therefore just compound the problem. So that’s why I think not matching toons would be better. 


To VOP's point, this issue has been exacerbated by WG in their emphasis they've placed on platooning. My understanding is that they believe that platooning will help with player retention (which is logical) and therefore they've added all kinds of incentives for players to platoon in the daily rewards.

 

There was a time that it felt like it was the exception to see two weaker players platoon, but now it feels like it's very much the norm.


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__V_O_P__ #2126 Posted 18 June 2022 - 02:01 PM

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View Postdport02, on 17 June 2022 - 07:38 PM, said:

MM discussion is evidence that perpetual energy is possibly


perpetual ignorance, maybe?



twirlingtowardsfreedom #2127 Posted 18 June 2022 - 02:44 PM

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View Postj_rod, on 18 June 2022 - 06:53 AM, said:


To VOP's point, this issue has been exacerbated by WG in their emphasis they've placed on platooning. My understanding is that they believe that platooning will help with player retention (which is logical) and therefore they've added all kinds of incentives for players to platoon in the daily rewards.

 

There was a time that it felt like it was the exception to see two weaker players platoon, but now it feels like it's very much the norm.

 

I think they emphasize toons also because misery loves company; if you're a bunch of 42-44% driving around (which I do see in toons a ton) then you're probably playing for other reasons than just getting a win. You also know a bunch of players look down on you, and you're sure to get a ton of salt incoming each battle as well. So may as well band up and get the most enjoyment you can out of shoot-bang-explode-wheeee. 

 

VOP; I normally agree with the 'equal MM would drive us all to 50%' line of thought, but I wonder about the platoon version. You'd still have 5 other players on both teams floating around in other ways. I think you'd have to input a massive amount of battles before any sort of deviation would be found from some platoon matching. 



__V_O_P__ #2128 Posted 18 June 2022 - 03:34 PM

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View Posttwirlingtowardsfreedom, on 18 June 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

 

I think they emphasize toons also because misery loves company; if you're a bunch of 42-44% driving around (which I do see in toons a ton) then you're probably playing for other reasons than just getting a win. You also know a bunch of players look down on you, and you're sure to get a ton of salt incoming each battle as well. So may as well band up and get the most enjoyment you can out of shoot-bang-explode-wheeee. 

 

VOP; I normally agree with the 'equal MM would drive us all to 50%' line of thought, but I wonder about the platoon version. You'd still have 5 other players on both teams floating around in other ways. I think you'd have to input a massive amount of battles before any sort of deviation would be found from some platoon matching. 


totally agree. but really under the same logic it would be fair to say that not matching them doesn’t matter. I’d like to see it. 
 

edit: it’s one of the things that we really don’t have much data about - how much toons impact win rates.  Or retention. You can imagine the stats showing that people who “stay and pay” also toon a lot. 

 


Edited by __V_O_P__, 18 June 2022 - 03:36 PM.


JefeMac #2129 Posted 19 June 2022 - 12:18 AM

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View Post__V_O_P__, on 18 June 2022 - 03:34 PM, said:


totally agree. but really under the same logic it would be fair to say that not matching them doesn’t matter. I’d like to see it. 
 

edit: it’s one of the things that we really don’t have much data about - how much toons impact win rates.  Or retention. You can imagine the stats showing that people who “stay and pay” also toon a lot. 

 

I’ve gotten to the point that I actually HATE platooning. Every single battle I get unis/su’s as opponents and players way worse than me as teammates. I am not good enough to carry and certainly nowhere near skilled enough to overcome a toon of uni’s/su’s. It’s beyond tiring, nauseating and I’m sick of it. Playing ratings and special event modes provides some real relief and fun - which I am not getting in platoons in reg battles. 



 

“And yet when you hear people say ‘conspiracy theory’ that’s designed to pluck this little part of your brain that says, well, that thing’s not true,” said Attkisson. “And I always keep an open mind and say, that crazy thing that they say is a conspiracy theory may well have some truth in it.”
 


JefeMac #2130 Posted 19 June 2022 - 12:21 AM

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View Postj_rod, on 18 June 2022 - 12:53 PM, said:


To VOP's point, this issue has been exacerbated by WG in their emphasis they've placed on platooning. My understanding is that they believe that platooning will help with player retention (which is logical) and therefore they've added all kinds of incentives for players to platoon in the daily rewards.

 

There was a time that it felt like it was the exception to see two weaker players platoon, but now it feels like it's very much the norm.

Yeah the “daily” toon missions are not fun.
 

Platooning should be something that’s fun or at least competitive. I never, EVER get opponents in platoons that suck worse than I do…..



 

“And yet when you hear people say ‘conspiracy theory’ that’s designed to pluck this little part of your brain that says, well, that thing’s not true,” said Attkisson. “And I always keep an open mind and say, that crazy thing that they say is a conspiracy theory may well have some truth in it.”
 


_Crusader6_ #2131 Posted 19 June 2022 - 11:58 AM

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Frankly the amount of mid 30% failtoons against terrible but ‘oddly’ stat other fail toons is just getting ridiculous. 
    For the past week I have seen a major uptick in 8-9 failtoons, a specific set I had 5 times (T49 and a BC) - both yolo at the start into red for zero damage, and the fact that the opposite failtoon has tier 5 damage and a 60%+ WR in 8-9 just makes it beyond fishy. 
 

 

 


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JefeMac #2132 Posted 19 June 2022 - 01:40 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 19 June 2022 - 11:58 AM, said:

Frankly the amount of mid 30% failtoons against terrible but ‘oddly’ stat other fail toons is just getting ridiculous. 
    For the past week I have seen a major uptick in 8-9 failtoons, a specific set I had 5 times (T49 and a BC) - both yolo at the start into red for zero damage, and the fact that the opposite failtoon has tier 5 damage and a 60%+ WR in 8-9 just makes it beyond fishy. 
 

 

 

:izmena: grrrrrrr! So maybe it’s not just that I sùck……..


Edited by JefeMac, 19 June 2022 - 01:41 PM.


 

“And yet when you hear people say ‘conspiracy theory’ that’s designed to pluck this little part of your brain that says, well, that thing’s not true,” said Attkisson. “And I always keep an open mind and say, that crazy thing that they say is a conspiracy theory may well have some truth in it.”
 


_TheKidd_ #2133 Posted 19 June 2022 - 02:06 PM

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View PostJefeMac, on 19 June 2022 - 01:40 PM, said:

:izmena: grrrrrrr! So maybe it’s not just that I sùck……..

Could be both like me :D



JefeMac #2134 Posted 19 June 2022 - 08:13 PM

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View Post_TheKidd_, on 19 June 2022 - 02:06 PM, said:

Could be both like me :D

True ! lol 



 

“And yet when you hear people say ‘conspiracy theory’ that’s designed to pluck this little part of your brain that says, well, that thing’s not true,” said Attkisson. “And I always keep an open mind and say, that crazy thing that they say is a conspiracy theory may well have some truth in it.”
 


_Crusader6_ #2135 Posted 19 June 2022 - 08:30 PM

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There are a slew of low battle count player (400-800) playing in tier 8-10 these days. 
     That makes it hard to understand what a lot of players will do. 
High tier tanks sniping - or it ignoring a battle right beside them etc.  
 

 

  The bigger issue is sometimes you have lost two tanks due to yolo in the first 30 seconds. Several times in that last two days I’ve had teams lose 2 tanks before my long reload tank is even loaded.  To me that is mostly intentional, or just criminal levels of stupidity. 

   


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JackSparrow_665 #2136 Posted 19 June 2022 - 08:39 PM

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View Post_Crusader6_, on 19 June 2022 - 03:30 PM, said:

There are a slew of low battle count player (400-800) playing in tier 8-10 these days. 
     That makes it hard to understand what a lot of players will do. 
High tier tanks sniping - or it ignoring a battle right beside them etc.  

 

I blame the tutorial. It dumps the player in Tier V without teaching them how to play at all. 

 

View Post_Crusader6_, on 19 June 2022 - 03:30 PM, said:

  The bigger issue is sometimes you have lost two tanks due to yolo in the first 30 seconds. Several times in that last two days I’ve had teams lose 2 tanks before my long reload tank is even loaded.  To me that is mostly intentional, or just criminal levels of stupidity. 

  

 

AKA the "legal" way of botting.


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