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TO_Dominator #801 Posted 16 January 2019 - 08:12 PM

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View PostGojira5475, on 16 January 2019 - 06:36 PM, said:

What's up with the MM today? Twice now I've had platoons at eight roll though with a level six tank on both sides,one team was running a KV-2 :amazed: the other I chewed up with my KV-4 poor bastard didn't have a chance. 

That is because the platoons are both failtooning.

 

If you don't know what that is, it's when a higher tier tank platoons with a lower tier tank. MM always takes only the higher tier tanks tier into consideration, which is why the lower tier tank can be dragged up into a battle 2 tiers above. 

 

It is only a disadvantage to the failtoon, not the team, because MM will always match one failtoon with another on the opposite team.


"Blitz" can't exist within a world of TDs.

Dan_Deerso #802 Posted 16 January 2019 - 08:17 PM

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View PostTO_Dominator, on 16 January 2019 - 03:12 PM, said:

That is because the platoons are both failtooning.

 

If you don't know what that is, it's when a higher tier tank platoons with a lower tier tank. MM always takes only the higher tier tanks tier into consideration, which is why the lower tier tank can be dragged up into a battle 2 tiers above. 

 

It is only a disadvantage to the failtoon, not the team, because MM will always match one failtoon with another on the opposite team.

 

Except good players can realize that the only players who really failtoon often are bad players, so if you get a good player in an overpowered low-tier tank you can actually increase your odds of winning. Especially if that player was around for +/-2 matchmaking.

TO_Dominator #803 Posted 16 January 2019 - 08:20 PM

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View PostDan_Deerso, on 16 January 2019 - 08:17 PM, said:

 

Except good players can realize that the only players who really failtoon often are bad players, so if you get a good player in an overpowered low-tier tank you can actually increase your odds of winning. Especially if that player was around for +/-2 matchmaking.

I don't understand why you put "except" in the beginning. 

 

Is there something you disagree with?


"Blitz" can't exist within a world of TDs.

Dan_Deerso #804 Posted 17 January 2019 - 03:28 AM

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View PostTO_Dominator, on 16 January 2019 - 03:20 PM, said:

I don't understand why you put "except" in the beginning. 

 

Is there something you disagree with?

 

You were claiming that failtooning is always a disadvantage, which is incorrect.

TO_Dominator #805 Posted 17 January 2019 - 03:37 AM

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View PostDan_Deerso, on 17 January 2019 - 03:28 AM, said:

 

You were claiming that failtooning is always a disadvantage, which is incorrect.

 

Tell me Deerso, do good players have more of an impact when top tier or bottom tier?

"Blitz" can't exist within a world of TDs.

Dan_Deerso #806 Posted 17 January 2019 - 03:47 PM

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View PostTO_Dominator, on 16 January 2019 - 10:37 PM, said:

 

Tell me Deerso, do good players have more of an impact when top tier or bottom tier?

 

Good players have a major impact on the battle regardless of high-tier status.

TO_Dominator #807 Posted 17 January 2019 - 04:22 PM

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View PostDan_Deerso, on 17 January 2019 - 03:47 PM, said:

 

Good players have a major impact on the battle regardless of high-tier status.

 

So a good player in a top tier T-22 medium has the same impact as a good player in a bottom tier t-44 in a failtoon? 

 

I assure you, tier status absolutely does have an effect.


"Blitz" can't exist within a world of TDs.

Dan_Deerso #808 Posted 17 January 2019 - 04:32 PM

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View PostTO_Dominator, on 17 January 2019 - 11:22 AM, said:

 

So a good player in a top tier T-22 medium has the same impact as a good player in a bottom tier t-44 in a failtoon? 

 

I assure you, tier status absolutely does have an effect.

 

Did you miss the "overpowered" bit, or just ignore it because it's convenient and lets you argue me farther?

TO_Dominator #809 Posted 17 January 2019 - 04:39 PM

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View PostDan_Deerso, on 17 January 2019 - 04:32 PM, said:

 

Did you miss the "overpowered" bit, or just ignore it because it's convenient and lets you argue me farther?

 

Did you miss the part where I said that only the platoon was at a disadvantage because they have less impact on the battle outcome as opposed to if they were top tier? Because you still haven't answered that yet at all. I've prompted you twice, and you gave the typical, "good players do well no matter what" reply that completely skips over that actual question.

But fine, I'll do as you asked. Let's take a good player in the game breaking wz 120 ft bottom tier in a failtoon and compare their impact on a battle to if they were a top tier 263.

 

Just as expected. No response. Classic.


Edited by TO_Dominator, 19 January 2019 - 03:51 AM.

"Blitz" can't exist within a world of TDs.

HateCampers #810 Posted 25 January 2019 - 03:55 AM

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The opening statement in this thread is false when it says "MM doesn't consider personal skill level".

Wargaming protects some clans and/or 60%+ WR players.

I have 4 screenshots from playing 3 hours today alone where MM puts much higher WR teams (if there is 1 or more 60% player) against much lower WR teams. Sadly I can't upload them as they are much larger than the silly 100 kb max size allowed.

During these matches, the lower ranked team also suffers from a high rate of shots that miss when they shouldn't (sometimes literally passing through an enemy to kick up debris directly behind them), or a lot of "That went right through" (0 damage), "Critical hit!" (0 damage), very low roll damage (like KV-2 HE hitting side of TD and doing less than 300 damage) and a lot of bounces (like my KV-2 bouncing HE off enemy, 0 damage). Conversely, our tanks receive high roll damage and pens that should not happen, like being hull down in a T-29 (only turret visible), getting shot head-on 5 times and being penned all 5 times, or side-scraping and having sides penned, etc.

But the most obvious is the win rates. Wargaming stacks the deck, making a win for the favored 60%+ players much more likely.

Since I can't upload the photos, I'll type out the win rates for the teams in these 4 instances from tonight. They're in "most damage" order, as shown in my screenshots.

Match 1.... (7 - 2 loss)

Losing team: 47.76%, 54.40%, 45.87%, 51.02%, 44,77%, 46.46% and 41.69%

Winning team: 66.11%, 65.70%, 69.04%, 51.14%, 50.00%, 44.32% and 42.08%

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

Match 2.... (7 - 0 loss)

Losing team: 54.46%, 56.31%, 58.83%, 51.20%, 44.23%, 47.01% and 45.73%

Winning team: 45.41%, 51.45%, 53.51%, 54.40%, 51.00%, 62.53% and 59.48%

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

Match 3 .... (7 - 5 loss, 1 afk on winning team)

Losing team: 50.29%, 46.46%, 51.79%, 50.99%, 54.40%, 54.31% and 44.94%

Winning team: 68.57%, 57.45%, 54.48%, 58.50%, 55.60%, 54.22% and 66.84% (was afk, did 0 damage and survived)

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

Match 4....  (7 - 0 loss)

Losing team: 51.73%, 45.69%, 47.11%, 50.99%, 53.45%, 54.39% and 47.80%

Winning team: 54.02%, 54.83%, 52.76%, 64.59%, 56.64%, 55.41% and 49.97%

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

It is important to note that these were the only 4 matches we had tonight that had any 60%+ players in it - we check both teams' win rates after each battle and have been doing so for months. The above results are very common.

We have also discussed this with a few of the 60%+ guys after the battle, and some agree that this is all true; some don't care, some love it, a few see the problem and want it fixed. One 60%+ player tonight offered to help us get it fixed if possible.

I've been playing for years (think I have 24k or more battles) and like most others my initial WR was garbage, I raced through tiers trying to get the next tanks, etc - eventually I calmed down and started to learn. My win rate steadily began climbing to just shy of 55% - and then they did the update that allows people to buy their way through the game - and that's when this started happening. It's also when my win rate started dropping again, whether I'm in a platoon or not. Now it is 54.39%.

Does anyone think Wargaming will change this, or just keep things the same since it seems to be making money???



originalmadkilla #811 Posted 25 January 2019 - 04:43 AM

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I've never seen this thread before I think.:playing:

 

Even though I don't like the guy too much, I actually agree with dan deerso in this one particular case.:izmena:

 

Good players failtooning actually sounds like a good idea.

 

If 2 good players do a regular toon then they will be up against another toon of tanks in the same teir, that might or might not be good players. Let's say that it's a toon of two 60% players VS an enemy toon of 60% players. The toons will cancel each other out and they will keep each other busy.

 

But if 2 good players failtoon, then the odds are very high that they will be up against 2 pretty bad players in the enemy failtoon. The match will basically be 7 vs 5 from the get go and the allied team will have a decent toon on their side, even if it's a failtoon. A good player will be able to handle being lowest tier, since they're used to it from before.

 

This can give the allied team a significant advantage. :justwait:

 

 


Edited by originalmadkilla, 25 January 2019 - 05:35 AM.


TO_Dominator #812 Posted 25 January 2019 - 01:36 PM

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View Postoriginalmadkilla, on 25 January 2019 - 04:43 AM, said:

I've never seen this thread before I think.:playing:

 

Even though I don't like the guy too much, I actually agree with dan deerso in this one particular case.:izmena:

 

Good players failtooning actually sounds like a good idea.

 

If 2 good players do a regular toon then they will be up against another toon of tanks in the same teir, that might or might not be good players. Let's say that it's a toon of two 60% players VS an enemy toon of 60% players. The toons will cancel each other out and they will keep each other busy.

 

But if 2 good players failtoon, then the odds are very high that they will be up against 2 pretty bad players in the enemy failtoon. The match will basically be 7 vs 5 from the get go and the allied team will have a decent toon on their side, even if it's a failtoon. A good player will be able to handle being lowest tier, since they're used to it from before.

 

This can give the allied team a significant advantage. :justwait:

 

 

May have missed the part where I said that it affected the failtoon mainly, as they would have a smaller impact when bottom tier. I suppose it does give the team an advantage, but your performance would be severely finished when two tiers down. 

Tons of bad player platoon at the same tier anyways. The chance that a platoon consists of good players is rather low, as good players are hard to encounter in blitz. They would most likely end up against bad players. 

 


"Blitz" can't exist within a world of TDs.

CA_vampire #813 Posted 26 January 2019 - 11:58 AM

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View Postoriginalmadkilla, on 24 January 2019 - 09:43 PM, said:

I've never seen this thread before I think.:playing:

 

Even though I don't like the guy too much, I actually agree with dan deerso in this one particular case.:izmena:

 

Good players failtooning actually sounds like a good idea.

 

If 2 good players do a regular toon then they will be up against another toon of tanks in the same teir, that might or might not be good players. Let's say that it's a toon of two 60% players VS an enemy toon of 60% players. The toons will cancel each other out and they will keep each other busy.

 

But if 2 good players failtoon, then the odds are very high that they will be up against 2 pretty bad players in the enemy failtoon. The match will basically be 7 vs 5 from the get go and the allied team will have a decent toon on their side, even if it's a failtoon. A good player will be able to handle being lowest tier, since they're used to it from before.

 

This can give the allied team a significant advantage. :justwait:

 

 

 

Nope. You just need ONE good player at top tier in the red team and he cancels out the platoon of two good players (since they are one tier and two tiers down). Failtooning is a bad idea, TO_Dominator is right and Dan is brainfarting as usual. 


oldman15000 #814 Posted 27 January 2019 - 12:03 AM

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I am a noob!  Let's get that out of the way up front.  I play a lot on tier 4.  My stats aren't too bad and I am satisfied for now with them.  My concern is when I play tier 4 I am low tier 86% of the time.  Out of that 86%  I am the only tier 4 in the match with 6 tier 5s 60% of the time and 1 of 2 tier 4 in a tier 5 dominated match another 29% of the total time About 5% of the time there will be anywhere from 3-5 tier 4 and 2-4 tier 5. about 1 % of the time I am top tier in a tier 4 tank..  As I said I think I am doing as well as can be expected.  Tier 4 is just totally outclassed by tier 5 tanks. There is just too much of a difference in the characteristics /power/armor of the two tiers.  I don't see that type of difference in any other tier (maybe I am wrong, I'll admit) but that is what I see when I play the other tiers.  I either do well in the battle by flanking and make good points or I run into a horrible streak where nothing works and get my [edited] handed to me.  I also run into a problem where I have fired numerous pramo into a tank to kill the enemy and some do nothing noob will just sit there watching me and when I have him almost killed, they will take the final shot and kill him.  As much as that frustrates me the real issue is that that noob is contributing nothing to the game/team and only comes out of hiding only to basically steal a kill that he has done nothing to contribute to and then goes back into hiding.  Instead of looking for another enemy and trying to kill him in the time they are just sitting there waiting for me to whittle down the enemy's XP so they can take the last shot.  That is another reason teams are bad and we lose a lot of otherwise winnable battles.  I think that is one reason you see some players with high damage and no kills while other players hove low damage and multiple kills.  

 

I will add , I am not a perfect or even a good player but in many cases I am the high WR player on the team and I am in a tier 4 against a tier 5.  As I said I do ok but that just seems unfair when matched against the enemy who is 5 out of 7 over 50% WR and they are all tier 5 .  If that is supposed to to teach me character or increase my skill ther are better ways to do it.  Thanks for listening!!

 



originalmadkilla #815 Posted 27 January 2019 - 11:32 AM

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View PostCA_vampire, on 26 January 2019 - 06:58 AM, said:

 

Nope. You just need ONE good player at top tier in the red team and he cancels out the platoon of two good players (since they are one tier and two tiers down). Failtooning is a bad idea, TO_Dominator is right and Dan is brainfarting as usual. 

 

Maybe I was brainfarting too, because I misunderstood and I thought that at least one player in the toon would be top tier. If the failtoon is tiers 6 and 7 and if the others in the match are tier 8, then I agree, it doesn't sound like a good idea.:justwait:

sabotdude #816 Posted 27 January 2019 - 08:27 PM

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One thing I have noticed since update I have been placed on teams with ZERO chance to win to many times green team is overmatched red team has to many heavies.  With MM something has to be done it seems the battles are already decided before battle.  MM needs to make a lot of changes to battles that are out of balance 

corpralpig #817 Posted 29 January 2019 - 02:38 AM

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Yesterday in my Matilda I had 14 battles in a row when I was the lower tier...

 

Why Wargaming



alladinzain #818 Posted 29 January 2019 - 10:44 AM

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View Postoldman15000, on 26 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

I am a noob!  Let's get that out of the way up front.  I play a lot on tier 4.  My stats aren't too bad and I am satisfied for now with them.  My concern is when I play tier 4 I am low tier 86% of the time.  Out of that 86%  I am the only tier 4 in the match with 6 tier 5s 60% of the time and 1 of 2 tier 4 in a tier 5 dominated match another 29% of the total time About 5% of the time there will be anywhere from 3-5 tier 4 and 2-4 tier 5. about 1 % of the time I am top tier in a tier 4 tank..  As I said I think I am doing as well as can be expected.  Tier 4 is just totally outclassed by tier 5 tanks. There is just too much of a difference in the characteristics /power/armor of the two tiers.  I don't see that type of difference in any other tier (maybe I am wrong, I'll admit) but that is what I see when I play the other tiers.  I either do well in the battle by flanking and make good points or I run into a horrible streak where nothing works and get my [edited] handed to me.

...

I will add , I am not a perfect or even a good player but in many cases I am the high WR player on the team and I am in a tier 4 against a tier 5.  As I said I do ok but that just seems unfair when matched against the enemy who is 5 out of 7 over 50% WR and they are all tier 5 .  If that is supposed to to teach me character or increase my skill ther are better ways to do it.  Thanks for listening!!

 

 

I totally concur with this, tier iv tanks have become mostly ineffective against tier 5 tanks. On top of that MM seems to give  more of those battles where there is only 1 or 2 tier iv tanks very outnumbered by tier v's. Some you win (usually with a lot of care) and some you just get swamped no matter what. Occasionally there is a more balanced battle with fewer tier v tanks. I never used to see so many Orlik / Oskin / Lehvaslaiho medals as i do now. 

 

Could it be that after 5.5 the standard MM does not handle the tier iv/v mix very well.

 

Seems to me that if tank tiers are to be mixed in battles then the default should be for more lower tier tanks than higher tier tanks to give a balance for all players. Having only 1 or 2 lower tier tanks should be an occasional challenge, not the standard punishment it currently seems to be.

 

P.S. kill stealing n**[edited]are annoying, but at least more helpful than rear echelon learner drivers.

 

 

 



CA_vampire #819 Posted 30 January 2019 - 11:17 AM

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View Postoriginalmadkilla, on 27 January 2019 - 04:32 AM, said:

 

Maybe I was brainfarting too, because I misunderstood and I thought that at least one player in the toon would be top tier. If the failtoon is tiers 6 and 7 and if the others in the match are tier 8, then I agree, it doesn't sound like a good idea.:justwait:

 

Yeah, that's what they were discussing. As you said, failtoon 6+7 with tier 8 tanks, too. If the reds have one good player in tier 8, he cancels out the good platoon in tiers 6+7. 

 

And since failtooning makes this quite possible, it is not a good idea (as a general rule). 

 

 



SpartacusDiablo #820 Posted 07 February 2019 - 03:24 PM

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View PostDoc_01_, on 07 February 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

Matches are rigged

A.  Nope

B.  I thought you left around page four.


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