Jump to content


Official Matchmaking Discussion Thread


  • Please log in to reply
1132 replies to this topic

Bachus131 #921 Posted 25 May 2019 - 11:25 AM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 24724 battles
  • 278
  • [JAWZ]
  • Member since:
    12-28-2017

View PostVigor555, on 28 April 2019 - 11:44 AM, said:

A ridiculous number of people play russian sudden death tanks and artillery.   That right there should show balancers what is messed up.   Even on the US servers, the most commonly played tanks are russian.    Ridiculous inbalance causes this.

 

One way to fix it would be to classify KV-2 and Smasher as TD's since they cannot perform the role of a heavy and hold the line with thier long reloads anyway that would limit the number of derp guns to 3 per battle. 
'Don't follow the lights, they will lead you to your DOOM'  ( Gollum )

Bellatormonk #922 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:24 PM

    Tinfoil Knight

  • Players
  • 29220 battles
  • 1,263
  • [MASHU]
  • Member since:
    04-12-2011

Tell me how this isn't rigged lol...I mean seriously...really...watch the lasts 2 mins.

 

https://ufile.io/75fz5obl



CA_vampire #923 Posted 29 May 2019 - 08:09 AM

    __Banned__

  • Players
  • 27097 battles
  • 1,144
  • [MOMB]
  • Member since:
    11-21-2016

I have learned something valuable from this thread: "the less you know, the more you think you know"! 

 

Some guys have no idea what computer programming is, but they are 100% certain "it is all random"! Others, go even further: they collect ... individual statistics! It's like they measure their own height every day for a year, and from these "statistics" they determine what is the average height for males in their State! Ridiculous! 

 

Below, I have a video where a game programmer explains a few very simple things about skills, matchmaking, and rankings. The video contains no math and no programming. An average Middle School kid can follow this video and learn a few things. It is a good introduction and worth your time.  

 

https://youtu.be/-pglxege-gU

 

 

 



___ez_e___ #924 Posted 29 May 2019 - 11:09 AM

    First Sergeant

  • Players
  • 63152 battles
  • 3,360
  • [GORT]
  • Member since:
    03-15-2015

Yesterday I played like doo doo all day and got carried all day.   I mean all day. 

 

Thanks NA Server players!   

 

I try to make it up and carry a few today.   



Bellatormonk #925 Posted 29 May 2019 - 03:16 PM

    Tinfoil Knight

  • Players
  • 29220 battles
  • 1,263
  • [MASHU]
  • Member since:
    04-12-2011

View PostCA_vampire, on 29 May 2019 - 08:09 AM, said:

I have learned something valuable from this thread: "the less you know, the more you think you know"! 

 

Some guys have no idea what computer programming is, but they are 100% certain "it is all random"! Others, go even further: they collect ... individual statistics! It's like they measure their own height every day for a year, and from these "statistics" they determine what is the average height for males in their State! Ridiculous! 

 

Below, I have a video where a game programmer explains a few very simple things about skills, matchmaking, and rankings. The video contains no math and no programming. An average Middle School kid can follow this video and learn a few things. It is a good introduction and worth your time.  

 

https://youtu.be/-pglxege-gU

 

 

 

 

Good stuff, I especially like 6:00-6:30 or so.  To bad he doesn't speak Russian, drink Vodka or speak in a more engaging manner...perhaps WG might have taken some notes.  Love the memes on player types.

oldman1500 #926 Posted 29 May 2019 - 08:29 PM

    Lance-corporal

  • Players
  • 7640 battles
  • 40
  • [WAR_G]
  • Member since:
    10-28-2016

View PostCA_vampire, on 29 May 2019 - 08:09 AM, said:

I have learned something valuable from this thread: "the less you know, the more you think you know"! 

 

Some guys have no idea what computer programming is, but they are 100% certain "it is all random"! Others, go even further: they collect ... individual statistics! It's like they measure their own height every day for a year, and from these "statistics" they determine what is the average height for males in their State! Ridiculous! 

 

Below, I have a video where a game programmer explains a few very simple things about skills, matchmaking, and rankings. The video contains no math and no programming. An average Middle School kid can follow this video and learn a few things. It is a good introduction and worth your time.  

 

https://youtu.be/-pglxege-gU

 

 

 

 

This might explain some of the [edited]I see in MM.  If new players in tiers 1-4 are playing against bots for the first few thousand games then they get good WR and move up quickly.  They are then thrown into matches against good players at tier 5 and up and get their back ends handed to them.  Since they have not really learned any tactics or strategy besides pew, pew, pew, they literally get Blitzed.  Unfortunately the good players on their teams get screwed when they lose.  I am not a great player by any means  (51.97 WR) and don't pretend to be one but, I lose a lot of battles where the half the team get killed in the first minute.  I keep seeing team mates that don't know how to drive or drive up behind you to take the kill on something I have put shots into and is ready to die on my next shot and, then to make matters worse stop behind me and block my retreat and I get left hanging out there and get killed.  I think MM is not the real problem. I think the mess WOT made with the lower tiers in an effort to keep more newbies who spend money is the problem.  The MM is just a result of lack of training in the lower tiers.  My WR for today is 18%.  Some of that is my fault for the reaction to the frustration and my resulting stupid play.  Most of it goes to total lack of skill by team mates.  As I have seen stated in the forums previously, statistically, if I did nothing but sit, I should have a 30 % WR for the day.

If on a good team I am strong enough to at least get a kill and help my team.  If I am the only high tier, or one of two, then I am probably not strong enough to carry the team and need help from the team.  Unfortunately that help is very seldom forthcoming.


Edited by oldman1500, 29 May 2019 - 09:18 PM.


CA_vampire #927 Posted 29 May 2019 - 09:50 PM

    __Banned__

  • Players
  • 27097 battles
  • 1,144
  • [MOMB]
  • Member since:
    11-21-2016
...

Edited by CA_vampire, 29 May 2019 - 09:50 PM.


paulnjess #928 Posted 29 May 2019 - 10:15 PM

    Private

  • Players
  • 20612 battles
  • 7
  • [RECK1]
  • Member since:
    04-18-2016

View Postoldman1500, on 29 May 2019 - 08:29 PM, said:

 

This might explain some of the [edited]I see in MM.  If new players in tiers 1-4 are playing against bots for the first few thousand games then they get good WR and move up quickly.  They are then thrown into matches against good players at tier 5 and up and get their back ends handed to them.  Since they have not really learned any tactics or strategy besides pew, pew, pew, they literally get Blitzed.  Unfortunately the good players on their teams get screwed when they lose.  I am not a great player by any means  (51.97 WR) and don't pretend to be one but, I lose a lot of battles where the half the team get killed in the first minute.  I keep seeing team mates that don't know how to drive or drive up behind you to take the kill on something I have put shots into and is ready to die on my next shot and, then to make matters worse stop behind me and block my retreat and I get left hanging out there and get killed.  I think MM is not the real problem. I think the mess WOT made with the lower tiers in an effort to keep more newbies who spend money is the problem.  The MM is just a result of lack of training in the lower tiers.  My WR for today is 18%.  Some of that is my fault for the reaction to the frustration and my resulting stupid play.  Most of it goes to total lack of skill by team mates.  As I have seen stated in the forums previously, statistically, if I did nothing but sit, I should have a 30 % WR for the day.

If on a good team I am strong enough to at least get a kill and help my team.  If I am the only high tier, or one of two, then I am probably not strong enough to carry the team and need help from the team.  Unfortunately that help is very seldom forthcoming.

 

This!

 

I'm not a mathematician and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but it seems to me that it should be impossible, statistically speaking to be on so many bad teams consecutively in one day.



CA_vampire #929 Posted 30 May 2019 - 12:17 AM

    __Banned__

  • Players
  • 27097 battles
  • 1,144
  • [MOMB]
  • Member since:
    11-21-2016

Statistics is the other big issue, both here and in real life. Many people insist that they understand elementary statistics, but actually they don't. 

 

We read a lot of posts complaining about long streaks of loses. And always the smart "know-everything" posters (usually the same guys that insist that "everything is random" ) will say that hey, it is just statistics, it is random. But is it?

 

And do those guys have even an elementary understanding of statistics? Or they just talk about something they have no idea about?

 

Here is another video (14 mins). This includes some technical aspects since it is about the programming language Python, but don't focus on that. Focus on the main issue which is very simple: in a population you have 26% black; if you choose 100 people at random, is it possible that you'll get only 8 black out of 100? 

 

The Supreme Court said "yes, it is just possible, it is just statistics". I bet that our "smart" posters who insist that "everything is random" will say the same. 

 

However, watch the video to find out what happens in reality. Just look at the graphs, forget the code, it is not important for our discussion here. I bet that you will find it amusing and surprising! (And you will learn something!)

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=OreWRDOb9fg


Edited by CA_vampire, 30 May 2019 - 12:23 AM.


oldman1500 #930 Posted 30 May 2019 - 03:48 PM

    Lance-corporal

  • Players
  • 7640 battles
  • 40
  • [WAR_G]
  • Member since:
    10-28-2016

View Postpaulnjess, on 29 May 2019 - 10:15 PM, said:

 

This!

 

I'm not a mathematician and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but it seems to me that it should be impossible, statistically speaking to be on so many bad teams consecutively in one day.

 

I agree wholeheartedly!  So what is the problem?  My WR is 51.93 today over 7000+ battles so why the sudden drop ( to 18%)?  I did not get a lobotomy in the last few days so I don't think it is lack of knowledge, skill, or tactics.  If you look at the video the "Vampire" has posted a link to (about the supreme court case), it would seem that the 18% WR is an abnormality.  But why am I seeing it at all?  One factor maybe the influx of kids on school vacation, but been there done that before and it didn't drop like that. I am having a problem with lag.  Ping for no reason has gone to over a thousand.  While ping will skip to 100 to 150 game will stop and hang.  When it works again I am dead.  This has happened before and not dropped my WR as badly as I see now.  ( I check on my end and everything seems ok).  Playing today at around 50% but getting 1 to 2 kills per game and high damage score on 1/3 of the battles but team is getting creamed quickly.  ( I have also done a couple of dumb things and got killed early but, for most part come in mid to high score. About what you might expect from a 50% player.  As I said I am NOT a great player but, I can usually hold my own.)

One thing I have been noticing when I go back and look at teams in each battle is while for the most part WR for each team seem to even out, the players with the higher WR seem to be driving the big tanks and the clown tanks (gravediggers, tankensteins, etc:).  I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not.

 

 


Edited by oldman1500, 30 May 2019 - 03:49 PM.


Si1verBlood #931 Posted 01 June 2019 - 02:34 PM

    The Armored Garbage Truck

  • Players
  • 15518 battles
  • 842
  • [SR-71]
  • Member since:
    09-27-2015

View PostCA_vampire, on 29 May 2019 - 07:17 PM, said:

Statistics is the other big issue, both here and in real life. Many people insist that they understand elementary statistics, but actually they don't. 

 

We read a lot of posts complaining about long streaks of loses. And always the smart "know-everything" posters (usually the same guys that insist that "everything is random" ) will say that hey, it is just statistics, it is random. But is it?

 

And do those guys have even an elementary understanding of statistics? Or they just talk about something they have no idea about?

 

Here is another video (14 mins). This includes some technical aspects since it is about the programming language Python, but don't focus on that. Focus on the main issue which is very simple: in a population you have 26% black; if you choose 100 people at random, is it possible that you'll get only 8 black out of 100? 

 

The Supreme Court said "yes, it is just possible, it is just statistics". I bet that our "smart" posters who insist that "everything is random" will say the same. 

 

However, watch the video to find out what happens in reality. Just look at the graphs, forget the code, it is not important for our discussion here. I bet that you will find it amusing and surprising! (And you will learn something!)

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=OreWRDOb9fg

 

That is a perfect case to use as an example...

By saying everything is random, I think they mean that if you have a horrible loss streak because your teams arent worth anything...you can also be at the other side of the spectrum getting carried by amazing tms just as easily...but the system that decides where you are on the spectrum is mostly RNG based......so taking the vid you posted as an example: getting carried 10 games in a row is possible....but very unlikely....and same with the opposite.



joes1500 #932 Posted 01 June 2019 - 05:49 PM

    Lance-corporal

  • Players
  • 20696 battles
  • 77
  • [P-BOD]
  • Member since:
    10-06-2016

Let's look at this as a business problem for a second.

 

If I was running a process let's say "making nuts and bolts"  and 20 batches were no good and then 20 batches were good, and this repeated over and over, I would shut the operation down and fix whatever is out of whack, because something would definitely be broken.  You saw in Vampires videos that such an situation IS possible but, it is NOT the norm.  As you saw in the videos it was entirely possible, albeit very unlikely, (enough to get the supreme court involved) that only 8 black men were chosen for the jury.  If you follow that rest of the video you will see that the data does correct itself after a number of computations.  It would be very unlikely for it ( just 8 men to be chosen again) to happen again and again as we are seeing in Blitz at this time.  Something is broke.  I am not smart enough to figure out what it is but, an inspector on my "nut and bolt process line" does not need to be an engineer to know something is not right.  He just needs to call attention to it and let the engineers figure out what is wrong. If after the data was reviewed and the engineers said there was nothing wrong, I would fire them for denying there was a problem and wasting time letting poor quality nuts and bolts go out the door instead of fixing the problem.  All the time the bad quality product goes out the door I would be losing customers.  Maybe that's why we have so many players leaving the game after playing for awhile.

 

I will probably be told by some Unicom that I am full of poop.  That's ok because there are some people who are so good that  they can prevail under the worst circumstance but, for the most part the average player will not and the average player makes up most of the player base that gets killed by the uni's and gets them their high scores.

 

Just my thoughts on this problem that never seems to get settled.   I am not a great player but again, if I saw this happening in a business world I would shut the operation down until it was fixed.

 


Edited by joes1500, 01 June 2019 - 06:14 PM.


blackbeard4791 #933 Posted 03 June 2019 - 03:28 PM

    Lance-corporal

  • Players
  • 6418 battles
  • 84
  • [SASK2]
  • Member since:
    05-09-2016
if you think that the MM system is random, its not! too many players put on unbalanced teams!! Wot will say its random, but they lie, math has proven this game to be rigged in some form!!

paulnjess #934 Posted 03 June 2019 - 10:43 PM

    Private

  • Players
  • 20612 battles
  • 7
  • [RECK1]
  • Member since:
    04-18-2016

Today's tally:

5W-10L

7 of the 10 losses 7-3 or worse.

 

Somebody explain to me how this is possible, day after day after day.

 

 



___ez_e___ #935 Posted 04 June 2019 - 11:24 AM

    First Sergeant

  • Players
  • 63152 battles
  • 3,360
  • [GORT]
  • Member since:
    03-15-2015

I guess I was due. 

 

Yesterday I had a 19.05% wr.  

 

When RNG hated me I couldn’t win and I should have stopped after 3, but if you know me I never stop after losses.   

 

I think I lost like 15 in a row.  

 

What was funny is if you looked at WN8 all my games while rng hating me was light green.  

 

After rng stopped hating on me all my games were purple or dark purple.   

 

It was such a strange thing to see on my daily stats. 

 



Bellatormonk #936 Posted 04 June 2019 - 02:48 PM

    Tinfoil Knight

  • Players
  • 29220 battles
  • 1,263
  • [MASHU]
  • Member since:
    04-12-2011
Just the usual "randomness".  I usually quit playing after 3 losses in row unless I am "testing" theories on MM or just being stubborn trying to break the "random" MM/RNG Casino.  Realistic might save this game or not...time will tell.

The_real_Tbone #937 Posted 04 June 2019 - 08:24 PM

    Private

  • Players
  • 3687 battles
  • 4
  • [GAA]
  • Member since:
    12-27-2017
MM, RNG and pseudo-randomness.

I've read quite a bit of this topic, and I’m not entirely certain, but I may actually have something NEW to add. Much of the discussion here revolves around randomness and rigging. For many forumers it appears to be an "either/or" proposition: Either it's completely random, or it's rigged against me (or in rare cases, for me.) If you don't agree with total randomness, you must be a tin foil hatter. If you don’t agree with rigging, you must be WG’s hoe. But the truth may be a bit more complicated. It is my proposition that MM and RNG are both algorithms which strive to create an apparent randomness, or pseudo randomness. But by definition, an algorithm cannot create randomness, only apparent randomness, since they use mathematical formulae to generate the number. I mean, think about it--a highly structured mathematical equation to approximate randomness cannot in fact create randomness, only the appearance of randomness. If you have a large enough sample of numbers that have been generated you can actually deconstruct the algorithm itself.

So, what does that have to do with MM , RNG and randomness? The answer is that, the simpler the algorithm, the easier it is to recognize a recurring pattern. and my guess is that whatever the algorithm is for RNG, it's got to be fairly simple since it needs to be calculated and applied in very short time frames. A highly complex (let's say hexadecimal strength) algorithm would take too long to calculate and apply. It needs to be something simpler. But the problem with a simple algorithm is that patterns are easily observable, which is to say we start to observe repeating patterns (I had X number of shots with zero damage...it must be rigged!). But what you are seeing is not proof of rigging, it's just proof that WG is utilizing a pseudo random number generator rather than a true random number generator (PRNG vs TRNG.)

You might want to take a look at this bitmap representation of the differences between true RNG and pseudo RNG-- https://www.random.o...nalysis/#visual

You can clearly see a pattern in the PRNG bitmap. If you were to apply this to shot dispersion, or damage rolls you would also see a pattern. Again, proof not of rigging, but simply proof of PRNG. If you would like to read a fuller treatment of the subject https://www.random.org/randomness/ would be a good start.

But what about MM you ask? Certainly that is rigged, no?

Well, again, we are back to algorithms. We know for a fact that there is an algorithm. WG has confirmed certain elements of an algorithm such as +1/-1. The only question is, what are the elements of the MM algorithm?  The simpler the algorithm, the easier it is to deconstruct, and the easier it is to detect a pattern (I had X number of battles low tier, MM must be rigged!) But what you are seeing is not proof of rigging, it's just proof that WG is utilizing an algorithm with discernible, repeating patterns.

But all this is just my hypothesis, no real proof. However, I do believe that we as a community could confirm or reject this hypothesis. If we have a large enough data set to pull from, we could deconstruct the algorithm. We could submit various data for a “runs test” to determine randomness.

If anyone is interested, that is.

Bachus131 #938 Posted 09 June 2019 - 12:07 PM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 24724 battles
  • 278
  • [JAWZ]
  • Member since:
    12-28-2017

I don't believe it is 'rigged' against any individual player but I do not believe it is totally random either.

Other games admit that theirs are not random.  For example Asphalt racing series admits that as you win you face tougher opponents both in multiplayer and against NPC's cars have rating and players have ratings and when you beat a higher rated player your rating goes up and you face  tougher opponents until you start losing and your rating drops then it normalizes.  So it would make sense that WG would do the same and people would see this as rigged because they generally only care when they are losing and thus pay more attention at  those times when they are facing the toughest opponents. 


'Don't follow the lights, they will lead you to your DOOM'  ( Gollum )

Si1verBlood #939 Posted 13 June 2019 - 05:42 PM

    The Armored Garbage Truck

  • Players
  • 15518 battles
  • 842
  • [SR-71]
  • Member since:
    09-27-2015
Are the teams always this bad in the early afternoon.....I legit feel like I am playing with bots....especially with my ru against high tiers when our high tiers are getting 0s all arround...

specialist5 #940 Posted 20 June 2019 - 01:03 AM

    Junior Sergeant

  • Players
  • 5249 battles
  • 116
  • Member since:
    07-05-2016

I know I am not the best BUT all is not good at the events when the thirteen teams I was on we won one battle. I was in top 3 for all but 2 battles. Went from tier 5 to tier 10. Wow! what a day. 6/19/2019  I have read most of this MM topic. I know some is me but there is to many things involved for MM to ever be correct and FAIR. 

Some say rigged and some cheat. If so find them and kick them off the game. I have paid to play also but no more.  I like different WW2 tanks and like to buy them. I am retired and was making this my hobby because of my Army back ground. I can't fight the enemy tanks and the game at the same time. 6/18/2019 Was bad in the morning lost 7 in a row. Later that day played 11 lost 1. Not sure that is fair also but that was the best winning streak sense I started. Looks like now with all the players it would be better and more fair. It is not. People will have to care for the customer and not just to take there money.   

 






2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users