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Dark_Magician_Girl #1221 Posted 27 September 2019 - 11:44 AM

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View PostRibbleStripe, on 27 September 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

 

First of all, there will be no tier 10 changes before Twister final. 

 

Looks like you suppose there's a way to make the charts look like this.

The only game where such stats are real is "rock-paper-scissors". 

Let me explain something. There are 9 vehicles in tier 10 MT section. Leopard has worst winrate and is 6th in average damage. But the gap between #1 and #9 is so minor that tier 10 MTs are almost perfectly balanced. Here are some calculations as a proof. 
Average damage among tier 10 MT is 2625. E 50 M has 2741, Leo has 2606 and T-62A has 2505. There by, Leopard's damage is lower than average by less than 1 percent. Leopard's WR is lower than average by 1.3 percent.  Does it make this tank "very weak" as you claim? Are you serious?


There are and there always will be fluctuations in the charts. It's absolutely normal, difference within 5-7% is totally acceptable. 

 

By the way, when you have some spare time try to compare latest charts with ones i posted a year and a half ago. Don't you think fluctuations tend to be less significant?

 

Isn't the goal of balance to try and bring tank stats to produce as similar results as possible while maintaining different play styles?  I am very serious RIbble, Leopard and 62 are weak compared to the competition.  Forget averaging all of the tanks together to get a damage number, look at how there is a noticeable difference between the damage output between E50M and of Leopard 1 by about 150.  This difference is greater displayed between E50M and 62A by about 250.

 

You may think 5-7% is normal, but how much is that 5-7% affecting tank choice?  Good players gravitate towards the strongest tanks.  Maybe we take a bet and see how many T-22's and E50M's are driven at the highest level vs. Leopard 1's and 62A's on November 9th.

 

I don't think fluctuations are less significant.  Tank lineups in competitive tournaments worldwide (and we have youtube to prove this) still seem to fluctuate massively based on how you balance.  Or is the recent dominance of the Foch 155 and the FV215B that "normal" 5-7%?  I feel WG has given up on balance especially, because of introduction of new consumables that have no place anywhere outside of mad games as an answer to actually changing the parameters of vehicles.  Or do we balance based on public games, and not competitive games?  If that's the case, I want my pre-3.6 Obj 140 back.  


Edited by Dark_Magician_Girl, 27 September 2019 - 12:16 PM.

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RibbleStripe #1222 Posted 27 September 2019 - 12:24 PM

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View PostDark_Magician_Girl, on 27 September 2019 - 02:44 PM, said:

 

Isn't the goal of balance to try and bring tank stats to produce similar results while maintaining different play styles?  I am very serious RIbble, Leopard and 62 are weak compared to the competition.  Forget averaging all of the tanks together to get a damage number, look at how there is a noticeable difference between the damage output between E50M and of Leopard 1 by about 150.  This difference is greater displayed between E50M and 62A by about 250.

 

You may think 5-7% is normal, but how much is that 5-7% affecting tank choice?  Good players gravitate towards the strongest tanks.  Maybe we take a bet and see how many T-22's and E50M's are driven at the highest level vs. Leopard 1's and 62A's on November 9th.

 

I don't think fluctuations are less significant.  Tank lineups in competitive tournaments worldwide (and we have youtube to prove this) still seem to fluctuate massively based on how you balance.  Or is the recent dominance of the Foch 155 and the FV215B that "normal" 5-7%?  I feel WG has given up on balance especially, because of introduction of new consumables that have no place anywhere outside of mad games as an answer to actually changing the parameters of vehicles.  Or do we balance based on public games, and not competitive games?  If that's the case, I want my pre-3.6 Obj 140 back.  

 

The main goal of adjusting tanks is to give them comparable opportunities to perform well. Since tanks have different armor, DPM, dynamics and so on, the charts can't look like a straight line without any fluctuations (as you want to see them). Moreover, numbers can change even if we don't adjust tanks. There are too many factors affecting global performance stats. Buffing the 'worst' tank all the time won't give us anything but useless efforts. 

If 1% difference makes certain tanks very weak for you, i have nothing to say. 

 

I'm just curious. Do you know any online game with absolutely equal performance and popularity stats for vehicles/weapons/characters?


 

 


Dark_Magician_Girl #1223 Posted 27 September 2019 - 01:20 PM

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View PostRibbleStripe, on 27 September 2019 - 07:24 AM, said:

 

The main goal of adjusting tanks is to give them comparable opportunities to perform well. Since tanks have different armor, DPM, dynamics and so on, the charts can't look like a straight line without any fluctuations (as you want to see them). Moreover, numbers can change even if we don't adjust tanks. There are too many factors affecting global performance stats. Buffing the 'worst' tank all the time won't give us anything but useless efforts. 

If 1% difference makes certain tanks very weak for you, i have nothing to say. 

 

I'm just curious. Do you know any online game with absolutely equal performance and popularity stats for vehicles/weapons/characters?

 

Then if you look at the charts, the E50M has noticeably more opportunities to perform well than the Leopard 1 and 62A.  I understand buffing the worst tank all the time doesn't fix the issue as it only causes long term escalation, but come on this is ridiculous how tanks like the E50M and T-22 continue to dominate and then tanks like the Leo1 are considered "normal."

 

1% does make a difference, and stop comparing it to the average for all tier 10's.  That's pointless because tanks in game don't play against this hypothetical, perfectly average widget tank.  What happened to WG balancing off of tank interactions?  Is that not a thing anymore?  There's a reason why good players are choosing to joyride around in the E50M instead of risking their butt with a Leopard 1.

 

And no, I don't know of a game that is perfectly balanced.  However, isn't that the point of balancing?  To continue the attempt of trending towards a perfectly balanced game instead of naming deviations of 5%+ as normal?


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Posit1ve_ #1224 Posted 27 September 2019 - 02:14 PM

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Are there plans to buff the IS-7?

 

It's noticeably worse than other tier 10 heavies in average damage, and also 2nd worst in winrate.


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RommelTanker #1225 Posted 01 October 2019 - 05:54 AM

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Can we please look into buffing the Leopard PT A? This isn't even out of personal bias towards the machine, it's out a genuine concern for the fact that it's the worst performing Tier IX medium in the game, with its performance in all aspects being so bad that even the utter stinking garbage that is the WZ-120 performs better. The performance is so bad that  Tier 8 mediums perform better than it does. 

 

 


Blitz Forums' resident Leopard PT A main.

I have discovered the glory of the Tiger 1. 

He who types many stupid essays and boasts about bad Leopard PT A stats.

I'm probably one of the only players in the game with over 5,500 WN8 in a Tier 1 tank. If that's not the most useless achievement ever I dunno what is.

HE does more damage than AP... in loopy land. 


RibbleStripe #1226 Posted 01 October 2019 - 11:28 AM

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Here come 6.2 stats
 
Tier 8

 

Tier 9

 

Tier 10

 


 

 


FussyRude #1227 Posted 02 October 2019 - 01:54 AM

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Nerf to french medium?
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RommelTanker #1228 Posted 02 October 2019 - 02:27 AM

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View PostFussyRude, on 01 October 2019 - 05:54 PM, said:

Nerf to french medium?

They're premiums so obviously that'll never happen. The Italians hopefully get a nerf though, and hopefully both the Leopard tanks get some kind of meaningful buff to make them somewhat relevant again (maybe a gun depression buff and more turret armor?) 


Blitz Forums' resident Leopard PT A main.

I have discovered the glory of the Tiger 1. 

He who types many stupid essays and boasts about bad Leopard PT A stats.

I'm probably one of the only players in the game with over 5,500 WN8 in a Tier 1 tank. If that's not the most useless achievement ever I dunno what is.

HE does more damage than AP... in loopy land. 


Chariot_Solace #1229 Posted 02 October 2019 - 05:03 AM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 01 October 2019 - 08:27 PM, said:

They're premiums so obviously that'll never happen. The Italians hopefully get a nerf though, and hopefully both the Leopard tanks get some kind of meaningful buff to make them somewhat relevant again (maybe a gun depression buff and more turret armor?) 


Almost all mediums in tier X have turret armor and I’m not a fan of making all tanks the same. I would rather see excellent gun depression by itself. Like 12 or 13 degrees to really minimize exposure when opportune and keep those tanks with a unique play style.


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ComeAndTankIt #1230 Posted 02 October 2019 - 05:14 AM

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No K91 in there.....seems to speak for itself.

RommelTanker #1231 Posted 02 October 2019 - 06:23 AM

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View PostChariot_Solace, on 01 October 2019 - 09:03 PM, said:


Almost all mediums in tier X have turret armor and I’m not a fan of making all tanks the same. I would rather see excellent gun depression by itself. Like 12 or 13 degrees to really minimize exposure when opportune and keep those tanks with a unique play style.

 

12 degrees seems kinda overpowering considering the mobility and gun handling of the Leopards (they can pop shots off ridges that even Pattons struggle on and not take any return fire... wait that's the Standard B. Nvm).


Blitz Forums' resident Leopard PT A main.

I have discovered the glory of the Tiger 1. 

He who types many stupid essays and boasts about bad Leopard PT A stats.

I'm probably one of the only players in the game with over 5,500 WN8 in a Tier 1 tank. If that's not the most useless achievement ever I dunno what is.

HE does more damage than AP... in loopy land. 


EricOtown #1232 Posted 04 October 2019 - 01:27 AM

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They shouldn’t nerf the Italians yet. Wait longer to see if their win rates drop. I assume that the Italians tiers 8 thru 10 have inflated win rates because there are more good players who have been able to research and buy them in the first few weeks since they become available compared to the average pool of players.

 

I’d rather WarGaming not overreact and nerf them so soon. Wait another month and give a chance for modem average players to research and start playing them and I guarantee their win rates and other stats will start coming down and they may not need a nerf. In the meantime if you don’t like getting beat by them, join them. Research them and play them. 



EricOtown #1233 Posted 04 October 2019 - 01:34 AM

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The AMX 50 100 definitely needs a buff. It’s one of only 5 tier 8 heavy tanks that have a win rate below 50% per BlitzStars.com. It needs either an armor buff or a buff to the magazine reload time and the reload time between shots. With only 2,000 DPM and paper thin armor, it can’t compete with all of the heavily armored tier 8 and 9 heavies and TD’s with similar or better DPM, and far better armor. Sure it has good speed and mobility and it’s an autoloader. It’s definitely a fun tank to play, but it’s 49% win rate is the 4th worst of all tier 8 heavies. 

 

The Caernarvon is another tier 8 heavy in dire need of a buff. It has the 3rd lowest win rate of any tier 8 heavy tank at 47%. It’s top gun only had 190 alpha. Sure it has a quick reload time of 5 seconds, but that requires you to expose yourself every 5 seconds just to get 2 shots totally 380 alpha and 2,100 DPM. This tank needs at least 2,800 DPM, like it’s younger brother the tier 7 Black Prince, in order to have ay chance of competing with all the monster heavies in tier 8 and 9.  

 

The T32 is also in need of a buff. It has the 2nd lowest win rate of all tier 8 heavies and one of only a few below 50%. 



Markus_The0 #1234 Posted 04 October 2019 - 03:48 AM

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Greetings RibbleStripe! :)

 

A good many tier II, III, and IV collector tanks have around 30% less dpm than the tech tree tier II, III, and IV tanks. For example:

 

All 7 tier III tech tree tanks (this is dpm without equipment--just base dpm):

 

M5 Stuart: 751 dpm

BT-7: 799 dpm

Cruiser IV: 713 dpm

Type 97 Chi-Ha: 740 dpm

Type 2597 Chi-Ha: 740 dpm

14 TP: 750 dpm

D2: 660

 

7 addition tier III collector tanks, for comparison (this is base dpm, like before):

 

Pz. s35: 500 dpm

Pz. II G: 545 dpm

LTP: 501 dpm

BT-SV: 480 dpm

M3 Light: 480 dpm

UE 57: 501 dpm

Pz. 38(t): 579 dpm

 

Will this difference among low tier tanks be monitored and addressed as time goes on? Thanks!

 

Sometimes it is fun to go re-live my good old memories of my early days in Blitz at tiers II, III, and IV in my favorite tanks from long ago--that's why I am asking. :)


Edited by Markus_The0, 04 October 2019 - 04:01 AM.

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Explixiit_ #1235 Posted 06 October 2019 - 09:21 PM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 01 October 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

They're premiums so obviously that'll never happen. The Italians hopefully get a nerf though, and hopefully both the Leopard tanks get some kind of meaningful buff to make them somewhat relevant again (maybe a gun depression buff and more turret armor?) 

 

italians dont need a nerf, its just that most 'unicums' are the ones grinding them and playing them.

 

they will balance out eventually


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__Frostbite #1236 Posted 07 October 2019 - 05:25 PM

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View PostExplixiit_, on 06 October 2019 - 01:21 PM, said:

View PostRommelTanker, on 01 October 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

They're premiums so obviously that'll never happen. The Italians hopefully get a nerf though, and hopefully both the Leopard tanks get some kind of meaningful buff to make them somewhat relevant again (maybe a gun depression buff and more turret armor?) 

 

italians dont need a nerf, its just that most 'unicums' are the ones grinding them and playing them.

 

they will balance out eventually

 

actually, id argue they need a slight nerf. their DPM is much higher than was what apparently expected due to their ability to always be reloading and always have shells ready to fire. they have enough DPM to brawl, dump a full clip, do whatever. their flexibility is too high and they should all get a slight reload nerf on their shell reload into the gun.



MudkipAtWar #1237 Posted 10 October 2019 - 01:56 PM

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View PostEricOtown, on 03 October 2019 - 09:34 PM, said:

The AMX 50 100 definitely needs a buff. It’s one of only 5 tier 8 heavy tanks that have a win rate below 50% per BlitzStars.com. It needs either an armor buff or a buff to the magazine reload time and the reload time between shots. With only 2,000 DPM and paper thin armor, it can’t compete with all of the heavily armored tier 8 and 9 heavies and TD’s with similar or better DPM, and far better armor. Sure it has good speed and mobility and it’s an autoloader. It’s definitely a fun tank to play, but it’s 49% win rate is the 4th worst of all tier 8 heavies. 

 

The Caernarvon is another tier 8 heavy in dire need of a buff. It has the 3rd lowest win rate of any tier 8 heavy tank at 47%. It’s top gun only had 190 alpha. Sure it has a quick reload time of 5 seconds, but that requires you to expose yourself every 5 seconds just to get 2 shots totally 380 alpha and 2,100 DPM. This tank needs at least 2,800 DPM, like it’s younger brother the tier 7 Black Prince, in order to have ay chance of competing with all the monster heavies in tier 8 and 9.  

 

The T32 is also in need of a buff. It has the 2nd lowest win rate of all tier 8 heavies and one of only a few below 50%. 

The amx definitely does not need a buff, Its fast, and has very good clip damage. You can run around willy nilly clipping things for half their hp pool without much effort. It probably has a low winrate because it takes some skill to use because of the gun depression and height combines ith little armor


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Meat_Locker #1238 Posted 12 October 2019 - 07:45 AM

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Odd, no Lorraine 40t in the list. 
 

I sure do wish that the reload were less than 20 secs. Hard to keep the damage scores up in that thing. Still a top vehicle in my book. 


 


BatchatBegins #1239 Posted 12 October 2019 - 08:09 PM

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View PostRibbleStripe, on 01 October 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Here come 6.2 stats
 
Tier 8

 

Tier 9

 

Tier 10

 

 

So when can we expect a t30 buff? After driving it I can tell you it's a solid tank. It's most noticeable downfall is that abysmal reverse speed. Buffing that would help that terrible positioning it has in your chart there w/o making it an overpowered tank.


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__Frostbite #1240 Posted 13 October 2019 - 09:13 PM

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The day the Grille is buffed, is the day justice is finally made at Tier X. It's suffered for over 2 years.
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