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HE shouldn't stop at tracks!

HE game mechanics

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lp_lima #1 Posted 09 June 2018 - 07:20 AM

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Guys, I'm really sick of shooting armorless tanks at the side with 120mm+ guns, aiming for the area above the tracks, and doing only half the damage because I hit those stupid tracks. Honestly, what is the logic on that? I mean... it is told that the HE of the SU-152 could blast a Tiger I's turret out, just by the raw explosive power. So, where does it come from, that a RU251 is protected by a big shell by 5mm of tracks? Like... what is the sense of it, it HE doesnt need to pen to deal damage? Othen that that, it is not HE, but APHE - and APHE shells have some minimum armor penetration fuse, before actually exploding, this allowing it to do fo through tracks and the actual armor itself.

 

My thought in the game: if you have like 30mm or armor, you would be better off just having 10mm and your sides covered by tracks. Compare, for instance, SP I C armor to the Type 62 armor, or even LTTB. It is MUCH MUCH easier to hit SP's side armor for HE (which should be, of course) than it is to hit those other two tanks. I feel like, in the game, if you would stick a paper frame around the tank, it would protect it all the same from HE damage.

 

 

Where does it come from, HE stopping at tracks? Is there some logic on it, am I talking nonsense here?



minitel_NA #2 Posted 09 June 2018 - 09:33 AM

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are you looking for realism in a video game ?

 

Ru tracks are 5mm wide ?

 

You heard that some tanks were protected by mesh ?


Edited by minitel_NA, 09 June 2018 - 09:34 AM.

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gordonchau #3 Posted 09 June 2018 - 10:45 AM

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and what makes you think HE are made to penetrate tracks?

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War_Vet_1 #4 Posted 09 June 2018 - 12:08 PM

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HE detonates on contact with the first thing it hits. Can't change physics.

_UrgleMcPurfle_ #5 Posted 09 June 2018 - 01:48 PM

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View Postlp_lima, on 09 June 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

Where does it come from, HE stopping at tracks? Is there some logic on it, am I talking nonsense here? HE detonates on contact with the first thing it hits. Can't change physics. 

 

Exactly as War_Vet_1 says. However, I think the reduction of HE effectiveness is exaggerated for the purpose of game balance. HE is supposed to be high-risk, high-reward—along with the potential to deal more damage, it can also easily dink a tank for damage in the double-digits. If HE could disregard spaced armor and tracks, the high-risk aspect would be gone and suddenly a whole slew of tanks can become easily broken (e.g. Ru 251, Fv 183, etc.).



lp_lima #6 Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:12 PM

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View Postminitel_NA, on 09 June 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

 

are you looking for realism in a video game ?

 

Ru tracks are 5mm wide ?

 

You heard that some tanks were protected by mesh ?

Obviously I'm looking for some level of realism in a video game which is highly based on historical concepts, vehicles and actual physics mechanics... 

 

5mm was just a number randomly put there to express the idea of thin.

 

What about the mesh? I don't get the point. There are many things a tank was protected against, varying to chemical rounds to adherence mines planted by infantry. I don't get your point here. 



InkaPanzer #7 Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:20 PM

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View Postlp_lima, on 09 June 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Obviously I'm looking for some level of realism in a video game which is highly based on historical concepts, vehicles and actual physics mechanics... 

 

5mm was just a number randomly put there to express the idea of thin.

 

What about the mesh? I don't get the point. There are many things a tank was protected against, varying to chemical rounds to adherence mines planted by infantry. I don't get your point here. 

LOL


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lp_lima #8 Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:21 PM

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View Postgordonchau, on 09 June 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

and what makes you think HE are made to penetrate tracks?

 

It doesn't. It doesn't pen any armor at all, and that is my whole point. Why doesn't HE do full explosive damage (considering armor thickness, obviously) every time? What is the difference between hitting a RU251 on the track or on the chassi, since HE won't pen in any case? HE is about splash damage; it is totally different from HEAT. HEAT is supposed to be catched on tracks, and that is fine. HE is not, since it will unleash its full potential damage hitting either the track or the flat side. Again, if HE could render a Tiger I useless or even score a catastrophic kill against it shooting at its freaking well armored 100mm turret, what chance would a scout tank have against 152mm rounds hitting them at the tracks?

View PostWar_Vet_1, on 09 June 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

HE detonates on contact with the first thing it hits. Can't change physics.

 

What actually changes physics is the game, giving HE some penetration value. Check my comment above, HE should do its work hitting tracks or flat sides.

View Post_UrgleMcPurfle_, on 09 June 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

 

Exactly as War_Vet_1 says. However, I think the reduction of HE effectiveness is exaggerated for the purpose of game balance. HE is supposed to be high-risk, high-reward—along with the potential to deal more damage, it can also easily dink a tank for damage in the double-digits. If HE could disregard spaced armor and tracks, the high-risk aspect would be gone and suddenly a whole slew of tanks can become easily broken (e.g. Ru 251, Fv 183, etc.).

 

Here I see some thinking. But that doesn't make a lot of sense, since, in my opinion, apart from 152mm guns, with which you can still splash for 400-500 (not too far from your average AP alpha), the potential risk is MUCH higher than the reward. I've been playing conqueror lately. The amount of times I shoot medium sides for 150 HE damage is absurd, and makes me think "why the hell am I even using the HESH?"; even shooting Bat Chats from the sides is tough; If you hit, you score 25% above your average AP round; otherwise, you score like 50% under it. Isn't that relation a bit unbalanced?

Edited by lp_lima, 09 June 2018 - 03:23 PM.


Boomer_Von_Doom_II #9 Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:34 PM

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View Postlp_lima, on 09 June 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Obviously I'm looking for some level of realism in a video game which is highly based on historical concepts, vehicles and actual physics mechanics... 

 

5mm was just a number randomly put there to express the idea of thin.

 

What about the mesh? I don't get the point. There are many things a tank was protected against, varying to chemical rounds to adherence mines planted by infantry. I don't get your point here. 

Then the game you're looking for is War Thunder, not WoT.  Much more realistic.


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View PostASensationalAsian, on 27 July 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

Anyone who drives a 183 please commit die.

lp_lima #10 Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:48 PM

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View Post__Boomer2__, on 09 June 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

Then the game you're looking for is War Thunder, not WoT.  Much more realistic.

 

Er,,, I play War thunder, and I completely adore the game mechanics. But I'm waaaay  too noob there, I can't spot any [edited], always get killed by someone camping from a I can't even even range find... So I still stick with blitz, in hope that some game mech here and there would make more sense.

BATM4N21 #11 Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:59 PM

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View Postlp_lima, on 09 June 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

Guys, I'm really sick of shooting armorless tanks at the side with 120mm+ guns, aiming for the area above the tracks, and doing only half the damage because I hit those stupid tracks. Honestly, what is the logic on that? I mean... it is told that the HE of the SU-152 could blast a Tiger I's turret out, just by the raw explosive power. So, where does it come from, that a RU251 is protected by a big shell by 5mm of tracks? Like... what is the sense of it, it HE doesnt need to pen to deal damage? Othen that that, it is not HE, but APHE - and APHE shells have some minimum armor penetration fuse, before actually exploding, this allowing it to do fo through tracks and the actual armor itself.

 

My thought in the game: if you have like 30mm or armor, you would be better off just having 10mm and your sides covered by tracks. Compare, for instance, SP I C armor to the Type 62 armor, or even LTTB. It is MUCH MUCH easier to hit SP's side armor for HE (which should be, of course) than it is to hit those other two tanks. I feel like, in the game, if you would stick a paper frame around the tank, it would protect it all the same from HE damage.

 

 

Where does it come from, HE stopping at tracks? Is there some logic on it, am I talking nonsense here?

 

the logic you are referring to is called physics.
?

dport02 #12 Posted 09 June 2018 - 04:10 PM

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OP is correct but this isn’t exactly a simulation game. War Thunder would provide these physics.
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gordonchau #13 Posted 09 June 2018 - 04:16 PM

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View Postdport02, on 09 June 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

OP is correct but this isn’t exactly a simulation game. War Thunder would provide these physics.

you mean an APFSDS that could bounce inside the tank several times? Yeah nice physics.


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lp_lima #14 Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:37 PM

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View PostBATM4N21, on 09 June 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

 

the logic you are referring to is called physics.

 

Could you please point me an article or something explaining how does a High Explosive shell penetrate armor (they have a penetration value associated to it in blitz, so...) but can't penetrate tracks? Please, at least see the original post carefully, to understand that HE should not need to penetrate anything to do damage.

View Postdport02, on 09 June 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

OP is correct but this isn’t exactly a simulation game. War Thunder would provide these physics.

 

Yeah... I think so..

Dan_Deerso #15 Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:52 PM

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If you can't properly use a game mechanic, it's not automatically broken. HE in the game cannot deal with spaced armor. Either internalize it or sell off all your HE rounds.

AfleetAlex #16 Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:01 PM

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You just have to know how it works in Blitz.

 

Knowing how it works in real life is worse than useless for you to know  ...

 

Play the pziv with the derp gun for a stretch of games.  You’ll have it down then.


Edited by player39364645, 09 June 2018 - 06:02 PM.


minitel_NA #17 Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:18 PM

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View Postlp_lima, on 09 June 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

Obviously I'm looking for some level of realism in a video game which is highly based on historical concepts, vehicles and actual physics mechanics... 

 

5mm was just a number randomly put there to express the idea of thin.

 

What about the mesh? I don't get the point. There are many things a tank was protected against, varying to chemical rounds to adherence mines planted by infantry. I don't get your point here. 

 

there is something obvious going on here :

furst of all you ignore the mechanics and physics of this game. You vaguely assume that you know real physics and WW2 weaponry (you obviously don’t) and then you assume (again) that the game should work according to your (mis)understandings of real world physics.

 

if you want to discuss WW2 weaponry, a lot of folks here will be pleased to discuss it.

if you want to study the game mechanics, i suggest 3 things to you, like I always do :

 

Battle mechanics — best available knowledge to the playerbase, by the players.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Battle_Mechanics

 

how to use HE, a (not so) short guide about using HE in game.

http://forum.wotblitz.eu/index.php?/topic/29958-the-art-of-using-he-high-explosive/#entry410634

 

studying all HE penetration and expected damage

http://wotinspector.com/en/webapp

Login, select blitz, select any duo of tanks, shooter and target, and select HE as ammo.

look closely what sort of things happen.

 

 

good luck.

 


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minitel_NA #18 Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:19 PM

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View Postlp_lima, on 09 June 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

 

Could you please point me an article or something explaining how does a High Explosive shell penetrate armor (they have a penetration value associated to it in blitz, so...) but can't penetrate tracks? Please, at least see the original post carefully, to understand that HE should not need to penetrate anything to do damage.

 

Yeah... I think so..

Done. Enjoy.


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diego_trippin #19 Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:24 PM

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Yes it should. When the HE hits tracks, it explodes instantly on the outside of the tracks, so it cannot hit the primary armor and only splashes on the tracks and the outer hull, so it's pretty much impossible to hit the tracks and somehow get a full primary armor pen with HE. If the HE shell hits the primary armor and not spaced armor or tracks, it doesn't prematurely explode before hitting the outside of the armor, so it will able to pen for full damage via hitting the main armor of the tank you are shooting, if the HE shell has enough pen to do so.

Edited by Dfranco_df04, 09 June 2018 - 06:27 PM.

sample_text

50_Action_Expresso #20 Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:57 PM

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View Postlp_lima, on 09 June 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Obviously I'm looking for some level of realism in a video game which is highly based on historical concepts, vehicles and actual physics mechanics... 

 

5mm was just a number randomly put there to express the idea of thin.

 

What about the mesh? I don't get the point. There are many things a tank was protected against, varying to chemical rounds to adherence mines planted by infantry. I don't get your point here. 

 

1. Most Russian and German tanks historically fired APHE shells as their primary AP round and a secondary HE shell. In honesty, our HE shells already have more penetration than some should (FV215b 183; the same gun in War Thunder only has some 180-200mm HESH pen iirc, not 220 or 242, German 75mm HE avgs in the single digit penetration range, etc), and they're about right when they hit a track. The detonation fuse on HE shells is highly reduced for the purpose not of penetrating armor, but of shattering fragments of inner structure around the cabin, more commonly referred to as spalling (This is why the old spall liner reduced splash damage; it realistically reduced the amount of fragments in the cabin by strengthening the spall).

 

2. 5mm is about the same a bicycle tire. I understand it was for example reasons, but at least use a more realistic thickness (ergo,40-50mm, etc.[i should note most tanks actually have far thinner track armor than they technically should; the Maus for example only registers as 40mm thick tracks when in reality the width was almost something like a meter, while the thickness of the individual links was almost 50-60mm]).

 

3. Mesh armor is like spaced or cage armor, just differently named. It reduces the effective of HE by detonating the fuse early.

 


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