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Balance Thread Repost - SU-101 Improvement Idea

SU-101 to be top tier

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Oicraftian #1 Posted 14 June 2018 - 03:31 PM

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If I may be so humble to suggest a series of improvements, for consideration upon the tier 8 machine. Similar such changes may be affected upon the tier 9, but I doubt it needs a faster rate of fire, where the tier 8 struggles with the damage output, and it's quantity of damage.

Though I would rather the tier 8 & 9 keep it's rather high skill floor. As you know, low difficulty machines tend towards a less nuanced game, more able to repeat the exact same method of damage out put repeatedly, until the game ends, or they die.

 

Too Long Didn't Read version:

Firepower:

  1. From (0.19/0.19/0.12) to (0.14/0.14/0.1) bloom, a major improvement to maneuvering, and firing. I believe it justified, if it is to keep a theme of "I trade power for a little bit of W, X, Y, Z"
  2. +0.55 RPM (5.21 --> 5.76), or slightly more, it is true it should trade some power, but it's penalty is much too harsh
  3. From (0.345) to (0.32) accuracy, as a recognition that it will probably have to stay rather far away, and poke the enemy team with it's rather large gun, incessantly, until they all die.
  4. Horizontal gun arc increased to 8.5*/8.5*, to improve target tracking.

 

Mobility:

  1. (1/1.2/1.7) improved to (0.8/1.1/1.7) or (0.9/1.1/1.7) to improve agility, such that it is more of a mobile machine
  2. Improve traverse substantially, perhaps 48-52 degrees per second

 

Survival Ability:

  1. Improve camouflage slightly

 

 

Introduction

Currently (perhaps for some time now), the SU-101 is widely regarded, as a poor machine for it's level, tier 8. Not for cause of an inappropriate method of play (a similar such machine exists), but simply in a lack of capacity within such specialization, with great compromise to achieve little. I will constrast to a similar tank destroyer, the German Jagd Panther II, for an understanding of the SU-101's situation, for the benefit of those who have no knowledge of it.

At the moment the Jagd Panther II has superiority in accuracy, movement dispersion, and vastly outclasses the SU-101 in raw firepower. If the SU-101 vastly exceeded the JPanther II in a similar way, then it would be fine. But it also extends to the guns arc, on horizontal and vertical aspects. This is not something the SU-101 ever manages to recover from, because it doesn't vastly exceed the JPanther II in anything other than camouflage. A feature already significantly compromised, by a limited arc of gun travel, both vertically, and horizontally.

It may even be said the Jagd Panther II may make better use of it's camouflage, simply because of the gun arc.

 

Firepower

Improving the situation in a manner desirable, I believe the following changes must be made to the tanks firepower, and shot effectiveness characteristics:

  1. Rate of fire improved to match, or slightly exceed the Jagd Panther II, such as 5.76 or 6 rounds per minute to make up for a 40 damage gulf and base damage. I find the former figure, a better fit.
  2. Gun bloom characteristic improved to 0.14/0.14/0.1 , to reduce the aiming period. As the SU-101 is likely to find it's limited gun depression and arc, as a rather awkward scenario, at short ranges, it's limited durability could be compensated by having a very rapid aiming period. Additionally, it is not a situation which may cause opposing players, great grief (when struck), for the gun does not devastate their machine in a single blow, allowing them opportunity, for an effective counter play, and many further tactical options.
  3. Horizontal gun traverse changed from 7*/7*, to 8.5*/8.5*
  4. The accuracy will improve, to follow the theme, to a figure of 0.32, shedding 0.025 dispersion, a nearly 10% improvement.

This category is a massive increase in firepower. An increase of 231 base damage per minute, keeps it behind it's counterpart, and yet, increases the damage per minute, in such a way, that is to operate in perfect synergy with the other such changes.

 

Admittedly, my lack of experience in the Jagd Panther II, has made me wary of adding more damage per minute to the SU-101. But if the accuracy increase is truly to be so substantial, I have little doubt in my mind, that the limited imagined increase to damage per minute is fair.

 

Agility

In the category of agility, to further support it's specialization, I suggest the following changes:
  1. Ground resistance statistics to (0.8/1.1/1.7), or (0.9/1.1/1.7)

or

  1. Increased ground traverse rate, to perhaps, a basic number of 48-52 degrees per second

 

Survival ability

The most important part of the "surviving" to be done in World Of Tanks, is simply not to be shot at. To not be shot at, you may use a barrier, or most desirable, simply not be seen. In a machine where it's attempts to fire on it's foes are already somewhat clumsy, and it's survival ability, rather poor. Improving the camouflage by integer percentage points, to match with the ever growing view ranges present, would be marvelous.

Though on many, more closed maps, it will have little affect.

 

A slight increase in agility, will no doubt be welcome for this tank destroyer, and a far cry from excess. It has substantial difficulty against fast machines, which it lacks both the ability to keep away, for it's short ranged performance, is rather uncomfortable.
The challenge of simply pointing the gun down is already present, if I may at least point it in the direction, within the horizontal plane, it would be excellent.
 
Conclusion
The whole point of these changes is to draw the vehicle into a better "ambush" machine. Better able to remain hidden, apply damage, while also improving it's ability to operate independently, to compensate for an inferiority in firepower. The gun handling improvement, will allow it to better survive when spotted, in an effort to make up for the relative awkwardness, being almost duck footed, when playing on a map such as Dynasty Pearl, or Himmelsdorf, and it's relative inferiority to the Jpanther II, in the damage output role.
 
Yes, these changes are probably enough to bring it to top tier, hence why it is being compared to the Jagd Panther II.
The gun arc change is actually based on the tanks historical characteristics, and little else. In reality, the gun depression was also superior.
Gun armament is changed from the real life machine, but the guns they actually used are still better on paper, compared to this machines in-game armament
 
[EDIT 1]:
Improved TLDR section
Added new line to bottom

Edited by Oicraftian, 14 June 2018 - 04:25 PM.

65% scrublord

Remember only tier 8/9/10 stats mean anything


Ookla_the_Mok #2 Posted 14 June 2018 - 03:41 PM

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First, I enjoy the 101 and don't think it is a bad tank at all.

 

Second, your buffs are so broad that they would result in yet another OP tank.

 

Third, my thought would be to toss aside the buffs related to sniping/camo such as gun arc and camo. Emphasize the non-turreted medium aspect of the tank with a slight buff to dispersion and a slight buff to ROF. The tank exchanges gun movement (both depression and arc) for mobility and armor. It does not, imho, need raw accuracy so much as it needs more effectiveness as close range shots in the heat of battle. Push the tank into its different playstyle instead of another sniping tank.

 

Fourth, your point about the tank's struggles on certain maps is absolutely true. It can be a frustrating tank to get shots in, which is why I would enhance the brawling and support ability while leaving the camo/sniping component untouched.



Oicraftian #3 Posted 14 June 2018 - 03:55 PM

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Yes, and I too enjoyed the SU-101, though on another account.

 

Explain why.

 

Explain why.

 

This tank is not good. It is not mediocre. It is bad. You don't realize it because you haven't:

  • Demonstrated similar capability in another tank
  • Played the Jagd Panther II

 

All of your advantages (your as in the tank) are already balanced out by flaws, you just have more than, almost anything in tier really.

 

At least one point we can agree on. Partially.


Edited by Oicraftian, 14 June 2018 - 04:36 PM.

65% scrublord

Remember only tier 8/9/10 stats mean anything


Ookla_the_Mok #4 Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:08 PM

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While I can appreciate a touch of snark, I don't think it changes the points.

 

You do better in the tank simply because you are a much better player. Since I mounted the top gun my damage and WR is pretty good and I do not see how the tank merits deep buffs like you presented. If I can win and contribute in the tank, it cannot be all that bad.

 

As you seem to agree, the brawling could be better. Small buffs to dispersion, traverse, and ROF are enough to help this part of its play. The armor is not of much use when lower tier, but it is also the last thing WG tends to fiddle with as they want to keep their models "true" when possible. Both the 704 and 268 improved dramatically with buffs (perhaps too much) and I believe minor but thoughtful buffs to the 101 would have a similar impact.



woodland_stars #5 Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:33 PM

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View PostOicraftian, on 14 June 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

Yes, and I too enjoyed the SU-101, though on another account.

 

Explain why.

 

Explain why.

 

This tank is not good. It is not mediocre. It is bad. You don't realize it because you haven't:

  • Demonstrated similar capability in another tank
  • Played the Jagd Panther II

 

All of your advantages are already balanced out by flaws, you just have more than, almost anything in tier really.

 

At least one point we can agree on. Partially.

 

You are always such a complete dôuchebag.  You should try getting a girlfriend kid.   Maybe she could remove the stick from your @ss


Edited by woodland_stars, 14 June 2018 - 04:33 PM.


Ookla_the_Mok #6 Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:40 PM

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Now I am just confused. Posts edited after I reply. I guess disregard my response to your DM as you seem hung up on my stats. Note sure how they are so bad considering ranked 12 in WN8 last 30 days, perfectly acceptable WN7 which is more relevant. If a scrub like me can play the tank OK then maybe just "git gud."


Oicraftian #7 Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:45 PM

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View PostOokla_the_Mok, on 14 June 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

Now I am just confused. Posts edited after I reply. I guess disregard my response to your DM as you seem hung up on my stats. Note sure how they are so bad considering ranked 12 in WN8 last 30 days, perfectly acceptable WN7 which is more relevant. If a scrub like me can play the tank OK then maybe just "git gud."

 

The edits more accuracy represent my meaning.

 

That is not my meaning, I am saying you are not demonstrating that you can do similarly in another vehicle (almost 2,8k WN8 for example), the tank vastly rises over your other tanks, almost 500 over your overall stats, so it is likely that it is a "shoe of best fit" so to speak. 2800 vs ~2300 is not a small growth in win rate, it is a very appreciable, and fortunate growth.

 

For example, some people, however rare (I think 1) can say, now, that the AMX 13 75 is a good tank. Yet, it is almost inferior, and I would like to say that it is inferior (in a comparison of stats aside from HP), to the AMX 12T

If the player excels in that tank compared to preceding vehicles, or, indeed, their entire assortment, it is quite possible that it's set of characteristics best suits the person itself, as opposed to the actual machine being capable.

 

 

This example in a void is not quite so good, so I explain the backstory a bit more.

The 12T is a rather mediocre, below average, tank for tier 6. So if it loses gun accuracy characteristics, in exchange for reload time. And then is increased in tier, with an according increase of HP, it is not really a good improvement.

Not only that, having something resembling doubled aim time, in exchange for a 50% growth in DPM, really is not about to help the situation. The application of DPM has been hit, in a tank that already finds it rather difficult to apply. To offer it something it cannot actually use is somewhat meaningless. And that is the situation the AMX 13 75 is in.

 

The difference is so substantial, that if I were to be a team leader in a fictional tier 7 tournament, and were forced to employ a French 6/7 light tank, I would invariably decide upon the tier 6 light tank.


Edited by Oicraftian, 14 June 2018 - 04:55 PM.

65% scrublord

Remember only tier 8/9/10 stats mean anything


woodland_stars #8 Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:50 PM

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View PostOokla_the_Mok, on 14 June 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

Now I am just confused. Posts edited after I reply. I guess disregard my response to your DM as you seem hung up on my stats. Note sure how they are so bad considering ranked 12 in WN8 last 30 days, perfectly acceptable WN7 which is more relevant. If a scrub like me can play the tank OK then maybe just "git gud."

 

He’s always acted like an entitled spoiled little brat on here.   If anyone ever questions anything he says he just attacks that persons’ stats.   Like he just did with you.   He’s the kind of kid that will hold their breath and stomp on the floor till they get their way.  

Strigonx #9 Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:53 PM

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View PostOokla_the_Mok, on 14 June 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

 WN7 which is more relevant.

 

WN7 hasn't been relevant since 2013.

 


https://www.blitzsta...er/com/Strigonx

 

 "In this game you’re either a predator or you’re prey.

 Prey doesn’t win at the same ratio as the predators because prey doesn’t have the same attitude. Unfortunately their are are not enough predators to keep the prey in check and  the prey is running rampant. Prey doesn’t care about WR, either directly or indirectly. Thats why they do what they want, that’s why the game has been dumbed down and  that’s why MH was brought about. Without a check it will continuously get worse until the predators are extinct" 4sfield


Oicraftian #10 Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:13 PM

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View Postwoodland_stars, on 14 June 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

(CROPPED)

 If anyone ever questions anything he says he just attacks that persons’ stats.   Like he just did with you.

It is most certainly a valid supporting argument when pertaining to game play. For example, when I am discussing +/-2 MM being reintroduced, and a less capable player cries out, that it is not fair. It is completely valid to inform it, of it's incompetence. Particularly because the very point is to prevent such a thing from occurring, so easily. The problem with you, is that you haven't quite grasped the difference.

Spoiler

 

it is curious how easily you achieve the offended status.


Edited by Oicraftian, 14 June 2018 - 05:16 PM.

65% scrublord

Remember only tier 8/9/10 stats mean anything


Ookla_the_Mok #11 Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:24 PM

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View PostStrigonx, on 14 June 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

 

WN7 hasn't been relevant since 2013.

 

 

Despite the flaws, WN7 remains more relevant for discussing the performance of a tank to its peers than WN8.






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