79 replies to this topic

[mpastor2000]

Balance in a game should be measured against the best players in the community's ability with the thing that needs balance.  Why is this?  It's because the player base will ultimately converge their play toward that state.  This occurs by watching good players and emulating or eventually stumbling on the broken aspects of things themselves.   This is how it is done in games where the main goal is a great player experience.  Unfortunately here, the main goal is milking the player base of cash.  A good game falls down the list somewhere.

 

 

[Fu_Manchu_]

mpastor2000, on 18 September 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

 

FU.  PLease.  You are so insecure in your stats, and I dont blame you.  You platoon over fifty percent of the time.  How can we or you really know.  Especially when you drive a tank like the tiger P with a platoon mate.  Plus when you play skill based tanks like the CDC and Panther 2, you blow chunks.  These are not signs of a good player.   I play solo.  My win rate may not be great but we all know at least it is mine.

 

But lets investigate your comments.  I dont think you think too clearly when making them.  You cant just cherry pick results from a win streak then present them as if they represent your overall performance.  Maybe you hooked up with a great platoon mate.... maybe the stars just aligned for you, but we dont know.  What we do know is you cant keep going like that forever.    You need hundreds of games to really look at these trends since MM's periodic up and down cycle is at least 100 games long.  You play so few games we need to go all the way back to career for you to get all of your numbers over 200 games. 

 

 

I think I drive the tiger as well or better than you (since I do it without platooning).    Also notice when I cherry pick BP numbers look at my stats in it.  Last I checked 84% trumps 75%.  But it is ridiculous to compare win streaks.  Nice try though.  I suggest you put less energy into tearing people down who outperform you and more energy into getting good.   You never improve with the former style, only your delusion improves.

 

Oh, btw, its not just me who thinks I play the tiger P better than you.  Blitzstars does too for I am ranked a lot higher than you  (319 vs 349).  Oh, and finally, my thirty day CDC ranking is 196 with a 60% win rate.  Where do you stand with this skill based tank?... lol.  But finally my  Black Prince rating is 165.  I doubt you are one of the 164 people who could call me a worse BP player.   I seriously doubt that.

 

 

 

[edited], you make such stupid assumptions: https://www.blitzsta...er/com/HanYolo_

 

4 of 65 battles in Tiger (P) in platoon.

[Fu_Manchu_]

And mpastor2000, if you want to focus on my stats under Fu_Manchu_, you have to factor in that I drove the Tiger (P) a lot when it was first buffed. Now you could be dense and just assume that is advantage Fu, but it was also when I had about 4 months of blitz experience under my belt, so it was definitely not advantage Fu.

 

If we go with the last 90 days, during which all of your Tiger (P) battles have occurred (i.e. no cherry picking), then we see damage per battle of 1678 for me and 1511 for you (advantage Fu), damage ratio of 1.69 for me and 1.42 for you (advantage Fu), KPB of 1.48 for me and 1.08 for you (advantage Fu), KDR of 3.61 for me and 2.02 for you (advantage Fu), spots of 1.54 for me and 1.45 for you (advantage Fu), survival rate of 59% for me and 46.5% for you (advantage Fu), WN8 of 3335 for me and 2556 for you (advantage Fu), 90-day rank of 79 for me and 319 for you (advantage Fu). But yeah, you totally play the Tiger (P) better than me. My higher platoon rate will certainly inflate the winrate (which is why I don't focus on that team-dependent stat), but it will not help me get additional damage.

 

In fact, platooning makes it harder to get more damage. This is easily demonstrated by looking at my HanYolo_ stats, where I absolutely blow you out of the water in this tank (see my earlier pic - and 22.5% 30 day platoon but only four platoon battles in the Tiger (P)) and, if I can keep it up for another 35 battles, I will take over the #1 all-time WN8 ranking.

Edited by Fu_Manchu_, 18 September 2018 - 07:43 PM.

[Fu_Manchu_]

I love all these undeserved wins that MM luck handed me...

 

 

 

[reluctanttheist]

Haha!  GGs Fu... you've proven why the Tiger P still rules tier 7!  Those things are all red from the front when I'm driving the BP... LFP is not red but if the driver has that hidden... they're a hard target

[Fu_Manchu_]

reluctanttheist, on 18 September 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

Haha!  GGs Fu... you've proven why the Tiger P still rules tier 7!  Those things are all red from the front when I'm driving the BP... LFP is not red but if the driver has that hidden... they're a hard target

 

Yes, I agree. It's not me, it's the tank. I drive the Tiger (P) very very well (lol @ mpastor's skill-based comment), but I can't run other tanks at the level I can run the Tiger (P).

[mpastor2000]

Fu_Manchu_, on 18 September 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

And mpastor2000, if you want to focus on my stats under Fu_Manchu_, you have to factor in that I drove the Tiger (P) a lot when it was first buffed. Now you could be dense and just assume that is advantage Fu, but it was also when I had about 4 months of blitz experience under my belt, so it was definitely not advantage Fu.

 

If we go with the last 90 days, during which all of your Tiger (P) battles have occurred (i.e. no cherry picking), then we see damage per battle of 1678 for me and 1511 for you (advantage Fu), damage ratio of 1.69 for me and 1.42 for you (advantage Fu), KPB of 1.48 for me and 1.08 for you (advantage Fu), KDR of 3.61 for me and 2.02 for you (advantage Fu), spots of 1.54 for me and 1.45 for you (advantage Fu), survival rate of 59% for me and 46.5% for you (advantage Fu), WN8 of 3335 for me and 2556 for you (advantage Fu), 90-day rank of 79 for me and 319 for you (advantage Fu). But yeah, you totally play the Tiger (P) better than me. My higher platoon rate will certainly inflate the winrate (which is why I don't focus on that team-dependent stat), but it will not help me get additional damage.

 

In fact, platooning makes it harder to get more damage. This is easily demonstrated by looking at my HanYolo_ stats, where I absolutely blow you out of the water in this tank (see my earlier pic - and 22.5% 30 day platoon but only four platoon battles in the Tiger (P)) and, if I can keep it up for another 35 battles, I will take over the #1 all-time WN8 ranking.

 

FU... pad damage all you want.  Hide and get your stats up all you want, I rank higher in the tiger by 10% than you  How do you explain that?    It's because my performance is much much more meaningful than a guy who is probably carried by a platoon mate most of the time.   I rank high in skill based tanks that you even admit you cant drive.   And, and as you pointed out, I never drove the tiger until after the recent debuff.  So, I dont have all that OP time in it like you.

 

Even if I didnt have all those other vast points in my favor, my performance is a solo performance.  Yours is polluted with over 50% platooning.  Which is cool.  If you need to platoon that much to win, then great... I encourage you to do it.  Just dont pretend you compare to others who dont.

   

[mpastor2000]

Though the tiger is a great tank.  Either tiger is no match for an equally or greater skilled BP player since the buff.  You need but a little game experience to realize this. 

• The Tiger P has two or more shot less DPM than BP.  (3000 vs 2600)
• The BP just face hugs a tiger.  Tiger will struggle to pen with standard ammo and it's DPM falls even farther behind otherwise... 
• BP can shoot the tiger hatch all day with standard ammo and of course if available the lower plate.  This means the BP pens every shot with standard ammo...over, and over, and over and over....
• BP better depression... while even hull down the tiger hatch is still an easy target.
• The BP is more maneuverable than the tiger with better effective acceleration in all terrain types. And better traverse.
• The BP aims fast

Pretty much all stats that matter the bp is better or dominates in them.  This is why I never die to a tiger P (even tiger IIs have trouble with me).  Play someone of equal or better skill than you and get dominated by the BP.

[Fu_Manchu_]

mpastor2000, on 18 September 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

 

FU... pad damage all you want.  Hide and get your stats up all you want, I rank higher in the tiger by 10% than you  How do you explain that?    It's because my performance is much much more meaningful than a guy who is probably carried by a platoon mate most of the time.   I rank high in skill based tanks that you even admit you cant drive.   And, and as you pointed out, I never drove the tiger until after the recent debuff.  So, I dont have all that OP time in it like you.

 

Even if I didnt have all those other vast points in my favor, my performance is a solo performance.  Yours is polluted with over 50% platooning.  Which is cool.  If you need to platoon that much to win, then great... I encourage you to do it.  Just dont pretend you compare to others who dont.

   

 

Wow, you really are missing the point. If I hide, then why do I spot more than you?

 

How exactly does one get 2.05 spots per game and pad damage?

 

Where did I admit I can't drive skill based tanks?

 

Does it not take skill to drive the Tiger (P)? If not, then why do I put up almost 700 more damage per battle than you and have a 0.8 higher damage ratio than you?

 

Do you understand the basic math of 22 < 50 and 4/65 < 50?

 

Why am I #2 30 day and you're #143?

 

Do you honestly believe I was a good enough player 4 months into playing this game, for it to even be comparable? I probably had 2-3k battles at that point. You have 36k battles. 3x the battles that I have now and I am better tiger (P) driver than you in every way (spots, damage, kills, survival, wn8).

 

Where was my platoon partner in those aces? Did platoon partners make me average more than 2000 damage in the Tiger (P)? Did they get me all those spots?

 

But hey, you are pretty well known around here for making stuff up and ridiculous opinions, so keep on ignoring all the individual stats I pointed out and keep focusing on the one stat (platoon rate) that you idiotically think makes a difference in individual stats. Whatever makes you feel better.

 

I'll await your response. My money is on 'but yer platoonz rate!!'

[Fu_Manchu_]

mpastor2000, on 18 September 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

Though the tiger is a great tank.  Either tiger is no match for an equally or greater skilled BP player since the buff.  You need but a little game experience to realize this. 

• The Tiger P has two or more shot less DPM than BP.  (3000 vs 2600)
• The BP just face hugs a tiger.  Tiger will struggle to pen with standard ammo and it's DPM falls even farther behind otherwise... 
• BP can shoot the tiger hatch all day with standard ammo and of course if available the lower plate.  This means the BP pens every shot with standard ammo...over, and over, and over and over....
• BP better depression... while even hull down the tiger hatch is still an easy target.
• The BP is more maneuverable than the tiger with better effective acceleration in all terrain types. And better traverse.
• The BP aims fast

Pretty much all stats that matter the bp is better or dominates in them.  This is why I never die to a tiger P (even tiger IIs have trouble with me).  Play someone of equal or better skill than you and get dominated by the BP.

 

You have an amazing talent for making weakly supported statements

 

 

The same player drove these tanks and the difference in almost every important stat is negligible. Your BP stats are less than 2% better in DR, KDR, and DPB, 6% better in KPB, 3.4% better in Survival and 23% worse in Spots. I would agree that for you the Black Prince is a slightly better tank but "dominates" is laughable given your own experience. How can you not see this?

[BorisBaddenov]

mpastor2000, on 18 September 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

Though the tiger is a great tank.  Either tiger is no match for an equally or greater skilled BP player since the buff.  You need but a little game experience to realize this. 

• The Tiger P has two or more shot less DPM than BP.  (3000 vs 2600)
• The BP just face hugs a tiger.  Tiger will struggle to pen with standard ammo and it's DPM falls even farther behind otherwise... 
• BP can shoot the tiger hatch all day with standard ammo and of course if available the lower plate.  This means the BP pens every shot with standard ammo...over, and over, and over and over....
• BP better depression... while even hull down the tiger hatch is still an easy target.
• The BP is more maneuverable than the tiger with better effective acceleration in all terrain types. And better traverse.
• The BP aims fast

Pretty much all stats that matter the bp is better or dominates in them.  This is why I never die to a tiger P (even tiger IIs have trouble with me).  Play someone of equal or better skill than you and get dominated by the BP.

 

Fu_Manchu_, on 18 September 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

 

You have an amazing talent for making weakly supported statements

 

 

The same player drove these tanks and the difference in almost every important stat is negligible. Your BP stats are less than 2% better in DR, KDR, and DPB, 6% better in KPB, 3.4% better in Survival and 23% worse in Spots. I would agree that for you the Black Prince is a slightly better tank but "dominates" is laughable given your own experience. How can you not see this?

 

The two of you comparing E-peens is quite entertaining.   

 

But I sort of figured that each of you were beyond that type of childish behavior.

 

 

Guess not-

Boris

[Fu_Manchu_]

BorisBaddenov, on 18 September 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

 

 

The two of you comparing E-peens is quite entertaining.   

 

But I sort of figured that each of you were beyond that type of childish behavior.

 

 

Guess not-

Boris

 

But....he started it!

 

I know that I should be above it, but I've just gotten sick of him throwing out ridiculous statements with little or no support. So, I am unapologetic in my childishness. The forums are going to hell and, as they say, when in Rome...

 

In my defense, I did actually start this off by acknowledging that he is a similar level player than me but that I simply do better in the Tiger (P) than he does in the BP (which, IMO is a result of the Tiger (P), not myself, since I do so much better in that tank than in any other tank). He decided to take that a step further by saying that I need to get good and that my success is merely a product of my platoonmates. I won't mention his laughable inability to support his position that he's better in the (P) than I am....oh wait...damnit I did it again.

 

In the end though, I'm just glad I entertained you Boris. That is satisfaction enough for me.

Edited by Fu_Manchu_, 18 September 2018 - 10:05 PM.

[boppinbobby]

TO_Dominator, on 18 September 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

 

Incorrect. They sit at the spawn from the other side of the map. If your team has spotted them, then either you have yoloers or your team has already won

 

I don't in mine. 

[mpastor2000]

I am not sure why you feel any tiger is superior to the BP.  How do you explain the 600 damage DPM difference?  How do you explain away the fact that the tiger P needs often to resort to premium ammo on the BP while the BP can shoot the turret hatch regardless of lower hull position.   These alone give the BP the edge, not even including other advantages.

 

https://www.youtube....eature=youtube    ( Here is the link.  I guess the forum does not allow us to embed youtube anymore... go figure)

 

Look.  I wont just slap up some slides where I beat on newbs.  Here is a recent video at Blackgold.  I was low tier.  Before I can seriously engage, we are down three tanks and behind in the numbers.  Watch how a BP can help turn that around against higher tier vehicles including heavies driven by a platoon of mid fifty players.

Some Key points here,

• Notice how at the start even though slow as all heck, my BP is many tank lengths ahead of the other hvys on our team since I move at once.  For me, the slow speed rarely is an issue with this tank.   Since most players spend many seconds gawking.
• Notice I engage tier 8 tanks from the start and continue to engage them throughout the match.  Actually, I did not realize this was a tier 8 match until I engaged the tiger2 later.
• The BP has unreal traverse and turret rotation.  Notice how I blast a high speed circling dragon twice, following him as he moves, and leaving him easy meat for my teammate to finish off.  A tiger P could not get two aimed shots off here.
• Finally,  after finishing off the 49.  I set my sights on the platoon of tier 8 hvys.   I have but 80 some hitpoints and together they have over 2k.  It is a three on three now... Yet we by all rights should lose this battle.  Yet, in a one shotable BP with only 80 hps (albeit well placed behind solid berm) I suck up over 800 pts of damage fired from the TIger ii and 32 in armor bounces.  These are shots that my team does not need to deal with as they also continue to dish out damage.  A Tiger P could not pull this off.  One HE shell to the turret would have finished it due to easy pen of turret hatch.
• I fire into the advancing Tiger II (driven by a mid fifty win rate player with over 20 k games) and continue to fire into him as he advances.  Again, a tiger P would have died here since its DPM is much lower and would have been Tiger II meat. 
• Once I finish off the TIger II, I then turn on the 32, and fill him with holes (notice I forget to switch back to standard ammo or my damage output would have been higher).

 

This BP tank in the hands of a non-newb is broke plain and simple.  What would you have done different to stop me... the best move would have been to run like the OP's title here suggests.

 

Edited by mpastor2000, 19 September 2018 - 04:50 AM.

[mpastor2000]

I was surprised they didnt nerf the tank last mod. I mean, tier 8 hvys have typically 8 - 900 less DPM.  In a BP, you out shoot them all the time.

[_Cletus]

mpastor2000, on 18 September 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

Though the tiger is a great tank.  Either tiger is no match for an equally or greater skilled BP player since the buff.  You need but a little game experience to realize this. 

• The Tiger P has two or more shot less DPM than BP.  (3000 vs 2600)
• The BP just face hugs a tiger.  Tiger will struggle to pen with standard ammo and it's DPM falls even farther behind otherwise... 
• BP can shoot the tiger hatch all day with standard ammo and of course if available the lower plate.  This means the BP pens every shot with standard ammo...over, and over, and over and over....
• BP better depression... while even hull down the tiger hatch is still an easy target.
• The BP is more maneuverable than the tiger with better effective acceleration in all terrain types. And better traverse.
• The BP aims fast

Pretty much all stats that matter the bp is better or dominates in them.  This is why I never die to a tiger P (even tiger IIs have trouble with me).  Play someone of equal or better skill than you and get dominated by the BP.

 

I don't have time to break this down point by point but oh my it's so wrong.  The Tiger P is faster with better armor.  Every shot the tiger makes will pen, and maybe every other shot from the BP will pen.  I would avoid face hugging a BP in my Tiger, but I wouldn't be afraid to do it.  But put some cover in between us and we trade shot for shot, even if the BP pens every time the Tiger P wins because each shot is higher damage.

 

Anyway, I think you two need to have some training room battles, BP vs Tiger P.  Think of all the time you guys would save typing and researching blitzstars after that.

[Fu_Manchu_]

mpastor2000, on 18 September 2018 - 06:33 PM, said:

I am not sure why you feel any tiger is superior to the BP.  How do you explain the 600 damage DPM difference?  How do you explain away the fact that the tiger P needs often to resort to premium ammo on the BP while the BP can shoot the turret hatch regardless of lower hull position.   These alone give the BP the edge, not even including other advantages.

 

 

 

My point is that raw DPM numbers don't always translate into the same difference in battle. Your own stats in the two tanks demonstrated that nicely. A 600 difference DPM turns into a difference of about 40 damage per battle.

 

A BP might indeed have an edge in a face-to-face brawl between the two tanks because of the specific armor profiles, but Blitz is not a 1-on-1 game. IMO, the Tiger (P) is still a better all around tank. Your opinion is that the Black Prince is better and your stats agree but suggest that the difference is marginal.

 

This is all I have to say on this matter.

[mpastor2000]

Fu_Manchu_, on 19 September 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

 

My point is that raw DPM numbers don't always translate into the same difference in battle. Your own stats in the two tanks demonstrated that nicely. A 600 difference DPM turns into a difference of about 40 damage per battle.

 

A BP might indeed have an edge in a face-to-face brawl between the two tanks because of the specific armor profiles, but Blitz is not a 1-on-1 game. IMO, the Tiger (P) is still a better all around tank. Your opinion is that the Black Prince is better and your stats agree but suggest that the difference is marginal.

 

This is all I have to say on this matter.

A tiger may be able to put up more average damage, but that probably has much more to do with it's top speed than anything.  Higher top speed means being able to move to trouble spots faster and to pad the damage after the battle is won better than a really slow tank.  Actually, I am really surprised my average damage is so close.   When average damage is clowe with players look to win rate. 

 

I am glad you are coming around and finally see my point wrt one on one advantage the BP has.   One on one locally is what a good player strives for.  Watch my video.  I always position my tank so I can properly fight just one enemy vehicle at a time.  I put four shots into the TD before he even can respond. I dont try to push or drive out in front of three enemy vehicles.  

 

Sometimes others have shots on me like the T32 when I fight the tiger, but then at a poor attitude wrt my tank and armor.  If you let more than one fight you at a time then things like me getting nailed by the 49 can happen.  But I was trying to save my team's 49 there so I was happy to take the sacrifice hit for the team's overall good.  Notice how I moved to let the 49 hide behind me and attempted to block the dragon's fire solutions on him.  Our team's 49 went on to do quite a bit of cleanup work.

 

So much is going on in that video that many dont notice. I move using terrain to mask my tank.  My gun always points toward possible enemy positions, I am not gawking around looking to see what my allies are doing.  That is what the mini map is for.   I plan my attacks so that I dont waste a lot of time sitting around with the gun dormant.  Once one enemy is dead I move to fight another.  Finally, I planned my move the caves before the battle even started expecting to fight just like I did.   

[mpastor2000]

Cletusrocks_ap, on 19 September 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

 

I don't have time to break this down point by point but oh my it's so wrong.  The Tiger P is faster with better armor.  Every shot the tiger makes will pen, and maybe every other shot from the BP will pen.  I would avoid face hugging a BP in my Tiger, but I wouldn't be afraid to do it.  But put some cover in between us and we trade shot for shot, even if the BP pens every time the Tiger P wins because each shot is higher damage.

 

Anyway, I think you two need to have some training room battles, BP vs Tiger P.  Think of all the time you guys would save typing and researching blitzstars after that.

 

It is not faster, it has a higher top speed... mostly this only helps when running away.  The BP traverses faster and accelerates faster on all terrain.  If you trade shots with a tiger at the tiger's rate of fire you are playing WRONG.  If you fight a tiger and he has shots on you then you are not side scraping right, you are not covering your hull correctly.   And, if you cant hit and pen a tiger with pretty much every shot, then you need to practice aiming.

 

You describe a fight against a newb.  If you play your BP so that you are disadvantaged like this, then that is why you lose and feel it is not as strong.  Watch the video.  That is a tiger 2.  Notice how many times he bounces shots.  And correct me if I am wrong... I do believe he has a better gun than a tiger p.  Notice that I bounce 800 pts of damage FROM TIER 8 hvys.

 

But what is nutty is that I have an 800 pt DPM advantage over those tanks.... It's laughable.

[Fu_Manchu_]

mpastor2000, on 18 September 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

 

FU.  PLease.  You are so insecure in your stats, and I dont blame you.  You platoon over fifty percent of the time.  How can we or you really know.  Especially when you drive a tank like the tiger P with a platoon mate.  Plus when you play skill based tanks like the CDC and Panther 2, you blow chunks.  These are not signs of a good player.   I play solo.  My win rate may not be great but we all know at least it is mine.

 

 

 

I'm not going to talk about the Tiger (P) and BP anymore in this thread. But I just noticed something....I'm ranked #20 30-day in the Panther II. But yeah, I "blow chunks" in it. Lol, mpastor2000 strikes again with the moronic unsupported statements.