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PLEASE watch out! Ricochet mechanics in 5.4

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RommelTanker #41 Posted 10 October 2018 - 04:46 PM

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View Postzcostilla, on 10 October 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

So it’s an accidental backhanded buff to tanks like the T32 and FCM50T

 

It doesn't make the FCM 50 t any less trash but yes it is a slight technical buff if ricochet is broken.


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reluctanttheist #42 Posted 10 October 2018 - 04:59 PM

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What Minitel and I did was have two tanks face off against other - I used a KV-1 as the target and a T34 as the shooter.  The KV-1 was set up to angle its side armor to the incoming shot, and then the replays reviewed in Armor Inspector to see at what impact angles penetrations were occurring.  The test done in 5.3 had impact angles of 17 and even 16 degrees and less penetrating when they should have ricocheted.  I had a third person spectate and so I had a video that I could use to look at the angle of impact there too.

 

In these cases, NO shell from the T34 should penetrate - they should all bounce.  But many of them did penetrate.  At about 18 degrees of impact angle, half of them went in.  That's not supposed to happen.


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RommelTanker #43 Posted 10 October 2018 - 05:19 PM

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View Postreluctanttheist, on 10 October 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

What Minitel and I did was have two tanks face off against other - I used a KV-1 as the target and a T34 as the shooter.  The KV-1 was set up to angle its side armor to the incoming shot, and then the replays reviewed in Armor Inspector to see at what impact angles penetrations were occurring.  The test done in 5.3 had impact angles of 17 and even 16 degrees and less penetrating when they should have ricocheted.  I had a third person spectate and so I had a video that I could use to look at the angle of impact there too.

 

In these cases, NO shell from the T34 should penetrate - they should all bounce.  But many of them did penetrate.  At about 18 degrees of impact angle, half of them went in.  That's not supposed to happen.

 

That's disturbing, to say the least.

 

18 degrees with the 5 degrees of normlization makes a penetration angle of 23 degree; this should in theory bounce closer to two thirds of the shots (66.6% recurring, technically). This is about normal.

 

What's disturbing is the shots penetrating an 16 degrees angle; this is 21 degrees with normalization, which is automatic bounce territory for the T-34-57 (but not quite autoricochet). None of the shells should penetrate at all at that angle, because the KV-1's side armor will be close to 200mm thick by my guess. It's doubtful even the biggest AP shell in the game would penetrate that angle reliably, as ricochet mechanics should in theory apply.

 

Like I said though, the best test is to see if the shells are bouncing or ricocheting off a Maus. If they aren't ricocheting, something is VERY wrong.


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reluctanttheist #44 Posted 10 October 2018 - 05:26 PM

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Richochet impacts are not normalized.  Anything under 20 degrees gets bounced.  Autobounce shots are any AP or APCR impacts that hit armor at an angle of 20 degrees or shallower.

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Posit1ve_ #45 Posted 10 October 2018 - 05:33 PM

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Are you sure that map inspector is showing the correct angle?

And also, are you sure that none of the shells hit the turret, or engine deck?

 

Because like I said, I tested this with having a K-91 shoot the upper plate of a Bat Chat using about half of its gun depression (a 70 degree angle), and not a single shell went in. If there were no ricochet mechanics, every shell should have penned.


Edited by Posit1ve_, 12 October 2018 - 06:28 AM.

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reluctanttheist #46 Posted 10 October 2018 - 05:44 PM

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Glad you're looking at the problem too, Positive. 

 

We're using a long flat wall on the Dynasty's Pearl map to give us a zero angle.  We have the T34 aim along the edge of the wall, and the KV-1 places its corner against the wall.  By using the view we get in Armor Inspector of the KV-1 at 20 degrees, we replicate that in the training room. 

 

We start at 20° where with the T34/KV-1 matchup the majority of shots penetrate.  Getting down to 18° over1/3 of the shots penetrate.  With Armor Inspector we can see the impact angle noted in the app, and visually the spectator view from high above allows us to confirm the angles from recorded screen caps.  I'll post some screenshots later of how we measured it.


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minitel_NA #47 Posted 10 October 2018 - 06:05 PM

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Waiting for the update to make the ultimate uncontestable shot series.

 

in the meantime, useless answer #3

 

Random Sweetheart

 Hello minitelrose,

Thank you for contacting customer service.

We apologize for previous answers. 

In this situation, there really was ricochet - when shell hits lower side hull, ricochet from it because of the angle and fell into track shoulder (the thickness of the armor which is 25), and penetrated it. 
You can see it on the following screenshots: at 4:30 a shell hits the side of tank (higher than lower side hull) and ricochets:
 

Pic#1


At 4:53 the shell hits below (the angle is the same) so it ricochets and meets on its way track shoulder. Shell penetrates it and deals damage:

Pic#2

I hope I was able to shed some light into your concerns. 

Please let me know if you have any further questions. 

Best regards,

 

 

IS7 is located above e50m. 

There is zero chance of the shot suddenly going upwards into the armor bottom.


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superfly29erguy_1 #48 Posted 10 October 2018 - 06:26 PM

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The super Pershing, which as everyone knows is the ricochet king when angled properly has been my albatross since last update.

zcostilla #49 Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:05 PM

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View PostRommelTanker, on 10 October 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

 

It doesn't make the FCM 50 t any less trash but yes it is a slight technical buff if ricochet is broken.

 

it’s not total trash. That turret has 150mm of frontal armor, one of the best medium turrets in the game. It’s a premium, so they were careful not to make it too OP, but I seem prefer it to any other medium I have. So much so that I sold my other tier VIII mediums in my garage, because it suits my play style and makes more credits. Admittedly, I’m only an average player, but I don’t keep a lot of tanks in the garage, only the ones I have fun playing.

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RommelTanker #50 Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:22 PM

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View Postzcostilla, on 10 October 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

 

it’s not total trash. That turret has 150mm of frontal armor, one of the best medium turrets in the game. It’s a premium, so they were careful not to make it too OP, but I seem prefer it to any other medium I have. So much so that I sold my other tier VIII mediums in my garage, because it suits my play style and makes more credits. Admittedly, I’m only an average player, but I don’t keep a lot of tanks in the garage, only the ones I have fun playing.

 

The only reason I say the 50 t is trash is because it's the size of a barn with nerfed armor compared to its PC counterpart. It has enough armor on PC to bounce Tier VIIIs and some Tier IXs from the front, but on Blitz it can barely bounce a T-43.

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Ericmopar #51 Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:29 PM

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The enemy has developed APDS rounds.

Old and Treacherous Flying Monkey.

 

 


RommelTanker #52 Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:34 PM

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View PostEricmopar, on 10 October 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

The enemy has developed APDS rounds.

 

I hate to burst your bubble but APDS rounds have been in the game for a very long time. Even the original Tier IX and X mediums have APDS shells, except for the E50M afaik.

They're just displayed as APCR for ease of player understanding/use.


Edited by RommelTanker, 10 October 2018 - 07:35 PM.

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TonnerreCadien #53 Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:52 PM

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View Postcheesehead247365, on 09 October 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:

pardon my French, but how do they f*** that up?  

 

I think the more appropriate question is WHY did they f*** that up? And nice to see another French speaker!

 

View PostBorisBaddenov, on 09 October 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:

Not really --

 

If you've no idea about sidescraping, or angling - then that's not something you've learned how to do.  On the other hand, if you've learned the game pretty well, then you've probably gotten at least semi-proficient with sidescraping.  Now if all of a sudden the game mechanics work, the experienced players have had an effective tactic removed, while the ignorant remain ignorant.

^^^^^^^^^This. 


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reluctanttheist #54 Posted 10 October 2018 - 09:00 PM

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View PostBorisBaddenov, on 09 October 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

Not really --

 

If you've no idea about sidescraping, or angling - then that's not something you've learned how to do.  On the other hand, if you've learned the game pretty well, then you've probably gotten at least semi-proficient with sidescraping.  Now if all of a sudden the game mechanics work, the experienced players have had an effective tactic removed, while the ignorant remain ignorant.

 

Experienced players know what 20° looks like after many games.  And you get used to using that angle to block shots.  Now suppose all of a sudden WG messes this up.  Who's screwed?  The veterans.

 

Have to wait till tomorrow until the web version and app versions of Map Inspector are available to re-test ricochets in 5.4.  Stay tuned.  Meanwhile, Minitel is banging his head against the wall with WG about this.  If we determine that the 20° rule isn't being followed, a unified front of angry veterans will be needed.


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Icefang50 #55 Posted 10 October 2018 - 09:38 PM

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Please use the official thread to post testing. The official, original thread has the history behind this issue.  

 

 

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reluctanttheist #56 Posted 10 October 2018 - 10:30 PM

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Icefang, don't make me sing Let it Go to you... it's alright man, Let it Be ;)

 

Also - twice the odds that WG staffers will read this and see we have a problem.


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_kell54_ #57 Posted 11 October 2018 - 03:52 AM

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Important bump

Wombeer #58 Posted 11 October 2018 - 04:10 PM

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View Postzcostilla, on 10 October 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

 

it’s not total trash. That turret has 150mm of frontal armor, one of the best medium turrets in the game. It’s a premium, so they were careful not to make it too OP, but I seem prefer it to any other medium I have. So much so that I sold my other tier VIII mediums in my garage, because it suits my play style and makes more credits. Admittedly, I’m only an average player, but I don’t keep a lot of tanks in the garage, only the ones I have fun playing.

 

Its effective armor on the turret is between 150 and 200mm (with the exception of a few small angled pieces next to the mantlet). Every single med, heavy, and TD at tier 7-9 can pen that reliably, even ignoring the cupola. At max gun depression, the upper hull is 170 and parts of the turret sides reach 217mm, which can finally bounce some med shells at tier 7 and 8 (and IS-x shells with 175 or 200 pen). Overall, the FCM is very poorly armored :/


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reluctanttheist #59 Posted 11 October 2018 - 05:14 PM

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So Armor/Map Inspector tell the story: at 18° we still get penetrations, even though at an angle of 20° and less we should get bounces 100% of the time.

 

Here's my ticket on the problem:

 

Ticket ID: 115434500

Minitel from the EU server has brought to our attention that the 20° ricochet mechanic is not working properly. In a training room, I shot at the flat sides of a sidescraping KV-1 which has 50mm of side armor. I used a T34 to shoot at the KV-1 and carefully angled the side of the KV-1 ensuring that the angle was less than 20°. The 120mm shell from the T34, at angles less than 20°, was penetrating the side armor of the KV-1 instead of bouncing off. This is a serious problem for players who use the sidescraping tactic. WG needs to investigate and fix the game engine to ensure that ricochets occur at angles of 20° or less. Screen caps from an observer and Armor Inspector were used to confirm that the impact angle of these penetrating shells was 18°. About 1/3 of the shells fired from this 18° angle penetrated the KV-1. A second test with a Cent 7/1 had the same results, though the shells only penetrated in 1 out of 7 or 8 attempts. The replay from the test with the Cent 7/1 and KV-1 is attached.

 

This is obviously a high severity issue and must be shared with and resolved by the Blitz development team.

 

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

 


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InkaPanzer #60 Posted 11 October 2018 - 05:21 PM

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View Postreluctanttheist, on 11 October 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

So Armor/Map Inspector tell the story: at 18° we still get penetrations, even though at an angle of 20° and less we should get bounces 100% of the time.

 

Here's my ticket on the problem:

 

 

 

And how do you know Armor/Map Inspector is working correctly? Did you test it?


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