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Autobounce Angle Removal and Tier X Meta

autobounce 5.4

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_UrgleMcPurfle_ #1 Posted 12 October 2018 - 01:57 AM

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I remember sometime around the last Twister Cup (or maybe the one before it, I forgot) when Bushka discussed WG's future ideas for competitive play, namely their plan to change the meta at tier X each year. As it happened, I think that conversation came about as they were discussing the mediums' fall from grace after 3.6; prior to that they were the dominant force at tier X, but they were soon replaced by superheavies and IS-4s.

 

So, if this autobounce removal is intentional (which I think it is), then I think WG is signalling the approach of a new meta. Since 3.6, they haven't done any mass nerfs to heavies as far as I can remember; this new autobounce removal would be the first of its kind in a long time. If mediums are coming back to competitive games, I'm all for it as from my (a spectator's) perspective, this rock-humping, HEAT-spamming bounce-fest is getting a slight bit stale.


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_Weeping_Angel_ #2 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:15 AM

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Interesting take. 

Absolute_Sniper #3 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:38 AM

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View Post_UrgleMcPurfle_, on 12 October 2018 - 01:57 AM, said:

I remember sometime around the last Twister Cup (or maybe the one before it, I forgot) when Bushka discussed WG's future ideas for competitive play, namely their plan to change the meta at tier X each year. As it happened, I think that conversation came about as they were discussing the mediums' fall from grace after 3.6; prior to that they were the dominant force at tier X, but they were soon replaced by superheavies and IS-4s.

 

So, if this autobounce removal is intentional (which I think it is), then I think WG is signalling the approach of a new meta. Since 3.6, they haven't done any mass nerfs to heavies as far as I can remember; this new autobounce removal would be the first of its kind in a long time. If mediums are coming back to competitive games, I'm all for it as from my (a spectator's) perspective, this rock-humping, HEAT-spamming bounce-fest is getting a slight bit stale.

Autobounce removal? Where did you see that?



reluctanttheist #4 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:41 AM

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Minitel has shown that the 20° angle which would have previously produced a bounce of any incoming AP or APCR shell less than 3x the armor thickness now often results in a penetration.  

 

This may in fact be unintended and that’s my expectation at this time. 


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_UrgleMcPurfle_ #5 Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:30 AM

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View Postreluctanttheist, on 11 October 2018 - 08:41 PM, said:

Minitel has shown that the 20° angle which would have previously produced a bounce of any incoming AP or APCR shell less than 3x the armor thickness now often results in a penetration.  

 

This may in fact be unintended and that’s my expectation at this time. 

 

At first, I thought there was no way the change was unintentional, as I assume the code for the autobounce would run independent of the addition of, for example, a new event. Although, looking back, there have been several instances where an adjustment produced a completely unrelated bug, e.g. chat/settings button squishing and disappearing replays. 

 

However, I don't recall any bug of that sort (independent of the change that was made) ever affecting a core game mechanic, especially such an important one as the 20-degree autobounce.


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Tackywheat1 #6 Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:32 AM

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with autobounce... rip batchat

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_UrgleMcPurfle_ #7 Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:59 AM

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View PostTackywheat1, on 11 October 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

with autobounce... rip batchat

 

Oh yeah...that thing. The upper glacis was just ridiculous and bogus. I am so glad it won't have its intermittent Maus upper plate anymore.

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reluctanttheist #8 Posted 12 October 2018 - 05:10 AM

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View Post_UrgleMcPurfle_, on 11 October 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

At first, I thought there was no way the change was unintentional, as I assume the code for the autobounce would run independent of the addition of, for example, a new event. Although, looking back, there have been several instances where an adjustment produced a completely unrelated bug, e.g. chat/settings button squishing and disappearing replays. 

 

However, I don't recall any bug of that sort (independent of the change that was made) ever affecting a core game mechanic, especially such an important one as the 20-degree autobounce.

 

Two words: regression testing.  I think this is an unintended bug that resulted from another unrelated change to the code of the game.


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rosgrim #9 Posted 12 October 2018 - 05:16 AM

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View Postreluctanttheist, on 12 October 2018 - 05:10 AM, said:

 

Two words: regression testing.  I think this is an unintended bug that resulted from another unrelated change to the code of the game.

 

intentional or unintentional for my experience in game it is now a reality (I had the doubt it was not, it was just episodes that still I already noticed). Today I focused on that and the 20-degree is gone. A lot of example in battle that i watch again to be sure. For decent players this is very bad.

Posit1ve_ #10 Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:21 AM

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The autobounce mechanic is still there. Don't get your panties in a wad

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CK_GoldenNuggets #11 Posted 12 October 2018 - 08:04 AM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 12 October 2018 - 06:21 AM, said:

The autobounce mechanic is still there. Don't get your panties in a wad

 

Agreed, there is no evidence to prove said mechanic is not currently working. A couple tests in a training room are not enough proof either. You would need thousands of shots to gather reliable data before coming to a conclusion. I just had a game 30 minutes ago where I bounced a waffle tier 9 with the side of my T34 (50mm of side armor) 3 times. That shouldnt be possible if the mechanic is broken. 

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___ez_e___ #12 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:09 PM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 12 October 2018 - 01:21 AM, said:

The autobounce mechanic is still there. Don't get your panties in a wad

 

I think it’s still there, but it’s been altered.   By how much is anyone’s guess.  

 

I’m beginning to side with op.   It was or is an intentional change or test for data points on balancing.  


Edited by ___ez_e___, 12 October 2018 - 02:12 PM.


_UrgleMcPurfle_ #13 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:17 PM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 12 October 2018 - 12:21 AM, said:

The autobounce mechanic is still there. Don't get your panties in a wad

 

My panties are in perfect condition right now, because guess what? I’m a medium player hehe

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TO_Dominator #14 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:33 PM

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So the solution for tier X meta is to Nerf heavies? Why do you think there are so many heavies? Because of TDs!
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_UrgleMcPurfle_ #15 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:36 PM

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View PostTO_Dominator, on 12 October 2018 - 08:33 AM, said:

So the solution for tier X meta is to Nerf heavies? Why do you think there are so many heavies? Because of TDs!

 

What are you talking about? I never mentioned a problem or a solution to it.

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TO_Dominator #16 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:37 PM

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View Post_UrgleMcPurfle_, on 12 October 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

 

What are you talking about? I never mentioned a problem or a solution to it.

 

Not you the devs
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SanguinaryDan #17 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:38 PM

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In the few games I’ve played recently I’ve seen no evidence that autobounce isn’t working exactly the same way it always has. Plenty of large caliber, high pen rounds bouncing off of highly angled armor all the time. 
The point of the game is to win.  The purpose of the game is to have fun.  They are not mutually exclusive.

Posit1ve_ #18 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:38 PM

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Also, Urgle, if there were no ricochet mechanic, meds would be the ones taking the brunt of that. Heavies have enough side armor such that when placed at wide angles, they’ll still have enough raw thickness to bounce shells. Meds benefit more from auto-bounce mechanics, having much thinner armor plates than heavies. If there were no ricochet mechanics, you could still sidescrape in an E-75, but not in an E-50.

 

 

Also, last night I tested it again. Skipped several 50 B APCR shells off the side of a PzB2. Ricochet is still there. If bouncing 340mm pen APCR shells off 60mm of armor isn’t enough proof, I don’t know what is.


Edited by Posit1ve_, 12 October 2018 - 02:40 PM.

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_UrgleMcPurfle_ #19 Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:56 PM

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View PostPosit1ve_, on 12 October 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

Also, Urgle, if there were no ricochet mechanic, meds would be the ones taking the brunt of that. Heavies have enough side armor such that when placed at wide angles, they’ll still have enough raw thickness to bounce shells. Meds benefit more from auto-bounce mechanics, having much thinner armor plates than heavies. If there were no ricochet mechanics, you could still sidescrape in an E-75, but not in an E-50.

 

 

Also, last night I tested it again. Skipped several 50 B APCR shells off the side of a PzB2. Ricochet is still there. If bouncing 340mm pen APCR shells off 60mm of armor isn’t enough proof, I don’t know what is.

 

You make a good point, though I don’t think mediums should be relying on autobounce as the primary defensive tool.

 

According to armor inspector, an angle less than 13 degrees would produce enough effective thickness to bounce 340mm pen APCR even without autobounce. And I think this whole issue would be made a lot simpler by an explanation from WG; it all seems a bit cloudy to me at the moment. Your evidence is more than acceptable, but so is Minitel’s.


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0V3RCL0CK3D_N00B #20 Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:17 PM

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I mean, they fee changes that may have been noticed could have been an implementation of the secondary overmatch mechanic from PC... [If your Gun caliber is 2x that if the armor plate you are shooting, AP and APCR will receive an increase to normalization]

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